Quote from Eddie on March 9, 2024, 8:41 pm

Quote from Gary Bogarin on February 10, 2024, 4:59 pm

• “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”
  • I think Watchman Nee is suggesting that Peter desires to become a certain type of person (someone who will not deny Jesus), but he mistakenly believes that he already is that type of person (without actually putting in the necessary effort). He was not yet the kind of man he thought he was. I'd like to believe that this not pertain to me. I know I am a work in progress, imperfect and still need a lot of pruning and growing to become the kind of man I desire to be.
• “It is a horrible thing to tell a lie; but it is a pitiful thing to believe a lie.”
  • The statement suggests that while telling a lie is a morally unacceptable act, believing a lie is pitiful because it involves deception that and can possibly lead to harmful consequences. Basically emphasizing the importance of what is true and the the harmful effects of lies, whether by others or by oneself.
• “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”
  • I think Watchman Nee means that our willingness to follow the Lord isn't solely determined by our desire to do so. Instead, it implies that our actions and behavior are the true indicators of our ability to follow Him. In other words, it's not just about wanting to follow the Lord, but also about actually living according to His teachings and principles.
    It is not enough that I desire to follow the Lord, I need to act accordingly.

Hey Gary, thank you for your well studied responses.  

Actually the first two statements are related aren't they; they being in the same paragraph.  I'm happy to see that you consider yourself work-in-progress, and that's a healthy way to look at yourself.  I would often say, if the Pope didn't have that mindset, we'd all be in trouble.  Right?

But here's a word of caution, Gary.  We can tell ourselves two kinds of lies.  There's the lie that make us so bilib in ourselves (actually it's Satan, the Daddy of Lies, who plants these seeds).   Or we can swing the other way, and feel so insecure, so incapable, and so afraid, that we would choose not to do what we are called to do, not trusting that the Holy Spirit that lives in us is almighty and powerful.  Remember the Israelites who sent scouts to check out the land of Canaan, and learn from them.  And while this may not be your problem, Gary, be prepared to handle this push back from brothers and sisters whom we call to service.    Maybe it's the insecurity inherent in Pinoys, or it might be false humility drawing attention to ourselves.  Whatever it is, Gary, be on your guard, and pray for hearts to just turn all the glory to God.

On your last point, I guess it can be summarized in the old adage:  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."  You're a professional.  You know the signs.  And it's evident not just at work, but more so when it comes to God's work, or to one's desire to follow Christ and to do His will.  The thing with God's calling is that even though the rewards are guaranteed, God's timing is not always our timing (look at what happened to John the Baptist), and His rewards are not in the denomination we often expect. 

And for me, the antidote to that is to change my mindset completely, and just desire to glorify the Lord in all that I do.  "I'll be happy if God is happy."  Yon.  I hope that works for you; and for those whom you are called to disciple, Gary.

Quote from Eddie on March 9, 2024, 9:12 pm

Quote from MarYo Galvez on February 10, 2024, 11:40 pm

- “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”

With Peter’s all out confidence in his commitment and passion as a follower of Christ, it seemed to be an unbreakable calling for a person who uttered the words “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” But Wathcman Nee showed that Peter broke. Parang ako. Parang hindi rin ako. Parang ako refers to the moment I said yes to the Lord almost 20 years ago after years of relying on my own without any religion. Parang hindi ako because even if I believed in the Lord for the first time in my life, my confidence in falling back to the old ways was weak and untested.

- “It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.”

Watchman Nee listed the significant times Peter experienced a seesaw of emotions from sublime heights of spiritual experience and drop to perilous depths. This can be true of us servants especially when we experience personal challenges that we will need to depend on others for prayers. Or when an unfamiliar service is entrusted to you and the familiar question of “why me” will not cut it. I am guilty of a shaky faith when given roles that I fear will disappoint the Lord. Minsan naghihiwalay ang tiwala ko kay Lord kapag may ipinagkatiwala sa aking  hindi ako pamilyar o hindi ko gusto.

- “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

Watchman Nee warns us of the highs we experience in relating with the Lord and to be understanding of its use for our drive to serve Him. I have fairly guarded myself of “victorious moments” over the years when commended of leading a good event, prayer meeting, worship. Or being on point with advises to young brothers. Nakakalaki pa rin kasi ng ulo kahit isa ka ng Kristiyano.      

I hear what you're saying, MarYo, and I'm not surprised of course, having journeyed with you through many occasions of service.  Obviously, gets na gets mo ang lesson ni Watchman Nee. 

As for the hesitance to take action because of the unfamiliar, it's a blessing and a curse, isn't it?  It's a blessing because it guards us from making foolish decisions and taking action without assessing our resources and the risks.  And hopefully that hesitance is the good part of due diligence.  "Let me pray about it," should be our sincere go-to response.  Because, this works and has continued to work for me; and the Lord has never failed to make His calling loud and clear.

But hesistance can be a curse if it stems from lack of trust in God, and His anointing.   This is the seedbed of Satan's lies, together with his cohorts viz., the world, and the ego.  While I have actually never seen you wallow in this, MarYo, and I don't think you're in danger here, I think it behooves you to know how to deal with these pushbacks when it comes to calling others into God's service.  Peter is the classic example of the extreme bravado.  Moses is the example of the insecure.  Jonah is the example of the tigas ulo.

For me the antidote is really a sincere desire to honor the Lord and to please Him.  God will bless that desire always!!  Even if we fail in the eyes of man, God will bless those whose obedience is fueled by the desire to honor Him.   Focus your eyes on Christ on the cross, and you can see how such a failure changed the history of civilization.

 

Quote from Eddie on March 10, 2024, 1:04 am

Quote from Gary Mercado on February 11, 2024, 1:11 pm

a. “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”

This statement I feel explains that Peter thought much bigger than he actually was. That his faith and love of Jesus was unshakable.

It is so difficult for me to read this topic bec I cannot, with absolutely certainty, compare myself with Peter’s faith, even at that early stage. Embarrassing as it is, despite being called a senior leader, I question myself about how strong my faith and love of the Lord is. I have experienced the grace of Lord in my life and seen his work with others, yet I still am not confident to be tested of my faith. In that manner, at this time, I do not see myself with greater faith than I actually have. I feel that as I gradually grow in faith, that gradual growth will hopefully also temper my thoughts of where I am in my faith.

b. “It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.”

Similarly means that we may be fooled by our thoughts that our faith is so strong when in fact it is otherwise. Many times, by just imagining myself in situations that other people face and I ask myself what I would do in that situation, I’m made to realize how weak my faith is and how much I need to rely on His grace to increase my faith.

d. “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to fo

Our desire does not equal our action. My understanding is that we have to deliver with what we promise.

Unfortunately at times, I may not even try given my fear of not being able to deliver.

Thank you, Gary, for this response.  You have turned around Watchman Nee's illustration and declared that in fact, yours in not a situation of overvaluing your faith, but in fact you humbly confess that you don't think your have enough faith.

Before I address that matter, Gary, let me just share my view of Watchman Nee's example of Peter.  The lesson he wanted to share with us leaders is that we ought be careful never to have too much faith in ourselves, which is what Peter had.  Sobrang bilib sa sarili, especially declaring allegiance to Jesus in front of the other disciples over which he perceived himself to be like a lieutenant and superior.  Watchman advises us leaders never to consider ourselves too highly; and instead (I might add) we ought to confess complete dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit to enable us.

As for your struggles with your faith, I don't know what life has thrown your way that your faith is tested, and now you feel that you're not the man that people expect you to be (because of your leadership role).  First of all, let me say, Gary, that none of us will ever have enough ability to deal with what we are called to do.  No one.  Not even the Pope.  But through the power of the Holy Spirit, then "we can do all things through Christ who lives in us."  (Phil 4:13).  Right?

This is a key lesson, Gary, for you in living out your servant leadership role in Ligaya; and it is also something you will probably deal with and address with others whom the Lord will send for you to disciple. 

Coincidentally, did you notice the "crosstraining" website where this Discussion Forum is hosted?  Check out the headline article that I wrote entitled "HOW MUCH FAITH DO YOU NEED?"  Why don't you spend a few minutes browsing through that article, Gary, and maybe submit a comment, so I'll know what you think about it.  Here's the link:  https://crosstraining.anik-anik.com/the-size-of-your-faith/#more-589 

In that article, I say that our faith is actually an all-or-nothing thing.  That's why Jesus says all you need is the faith the size of a mustard seed.  Read the article and see what I think that means, and what practical things you can do to deal with your desire to "increase" your faith.  I'd love to talk to you some more about this when you have time. 

Quote from Eddie on March 10, 2024, 7:10 pm

Quote from Alan Santos on February 12, 2024, 5:56 pm

1 “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”

* Peter genuinely loved the Lord but at times he was over confident, allowing his desires and feelings to take over – like many of us who follow the Lord, there are times when our over confidence takes over and we forget to first come to the Lord and seek his guidance and truly listen to Him.

2 “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

* We all desire to follow the Lord but our desire requires action too. Let our desire for the Lord show through the service that we are asked/tasked to do. That through this service, we are able to truly declare our love for the Lord and our brothers and sisters.

3 “It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose.”

* Quoting Neeman – “They are apt to speak and to act swiftly under the urge of a sudden impulse, but the impulse may not be a divine impulse. Many problems in the Lord’s work arise because of this radical defect in the lives of His servants; and because the trouble is radical, it calls for a radical correction.” I am not exempt from this, I have acted more often from my own opinion rather than stop and pause and ask what would Jesus do in the particular circumstance. 

Hey, Alan.  Spot on in your understanding of Watchman Nee's statements and article.  Being our leaders' (plural) servant for a super long time is testimony of your unfailing commitment to serve God and His people without due consideration of your own comforts.  And you've been very good, and competent at it.  Thank you for this demonstration of love. 

And maybe your competence at the job no longer requires "stopping and pausing" to ask what Jesus would want you to do in that line of service; so don't feel guilty that you run almost on autopilot.  

But now, the Lord picks you, not only to be a leader's servant, but to become a servant leader.  Now's the time to get down on your knees cuz He's taking you to a different territory way out of your comfort zone, requiring a totally new skill set.  For sure, the lessons of Watchman Nee about the bilib-sa-sarili mindset of Peter does not apply to you.  

There is some point, however, that Watchman Nee indicates that might apply to you.  Statement #1, applied to Peter, indicates his overconfidence in his role; he thought he had what it takes, but it turns out kulang pa.  However, if we take this statement and apply it to you, might it not mean that you think you DON'T HAVE what it takes, but perhaps you DO have what it takes.  If your mind says, "I can't do this," then obviously you won't  accomplish anything.  But the truth is, God calls you, and listen to what He says in Zech 4:6: "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts."

May the Lord pour upon you a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit, so that it will no longer be "you, but Christ who lives in you" (Gal 2:20), so that you are able "to do all things through Christ who strengthens you." (Phil 4:13)

Those are all too familiar verses, aren't they, Alan?  Well, it's time for you to claim them, and experience power from on High!!

Quote from Eddie on March 10, 2024, 7:44 pm

Quote from Gani Custodio on February 12, 2024, 9:00 pm

a. “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”
There were different instances, like when Neeman wrote: " sudden swing of the pendulum"; the repeated declarations that he would follow the Lord at all cost

c. “It is a horrible thing to tell a lie, but it is a pitiful thing to believe a lie.”
I have gone through this experience, as we already know that lying is a sin but continued to live a life bargaining for it that is is okay since nobody knows .... the Lord knows!

d. “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”
This will be tiresome, especially when it is just for a show or acceptance. I do believe that the Lord, like how Peter experienced it, will cleanse the desire of an individual.

 

 

 

Thank you, Gani.  Let me combine your comment on telling a lie, and serving the Lord for show or acceptance.  Because therein lies the lie, that Satan puts in our heads. 

We need to be careful when we serve, Gani, because our "human nature" (the flesh) desires affirmation.  And when affirmation is lavished on us (through appreciation of those whom we serve, for example) a seed of self-worth can get planted in our heads by Satan.  Before long, when we prepare for the next service, we start preparing with the anticipation of affirmation.   And then we start living a lie.  We serve as if we want to honor the Lord, and as if we care for the people, when in fact, we serve because we like the affirmation; in other words, we serve ourselves.

I speak from experience.  And I noticed that a couple of brothers who responded to your reflection also echo this condition.  This -- as I have said to many other gifted servants in the past -- is the curse of the gifted.   Maybe someday, I can share with you and others how I experienced and dealt with this curse.  

And that's why, whenever someone gets appointed to head a ministry (e.g., Chito Morales when elected as Senior Head Coordinator, or Melmarx as Sector Coordinator), I shudder when people "congratulate" them.  Of course, I didn't join that congratulatory bandwagon; instead, I prayed for them, and I thanked them for making themselves available and for carrying this yoke for the sake of community.

I appreciate what Fr. Herb prays at the end of each Mass, when he gives his final blessing, asking that Jesus would guard our hearts and minds ... a prayer that I claim each time I serve.  It's something I whisper in the ears of some of our young gifted servants (people who prophesy, or who have good sharing, or in music). I would say to them:  "You have a gift.  Thank you.  Please guard your heart."  Of course on other occasions, I would say "Pahirapan ka sana ni Lord."  Right?  Haha.

This is an important and valuable lesson to be aware of, Gani, not just for yourself, but for future servants that you will mentor and groom.  

Quote from Eddie on March 10, 2024, 8:11 pm

Quote from Alex Filamor on February 12, 2024, 9:07 pm

a. “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”

• Peter knows his capability as a human but he is caught off guard and unleashes the true character in him. This is probably due to pressure and panic. Oftentimes I encounter such a situation, that I tend to forget that first and foremost I am a servant of the Lord.

b. “It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.”

• The emotions of Peter at this moment are very high and his love for Jesus is more than that he can imagine. What he believed at that moment was non-negotiable. I have encountered highness in spirit and love for God that no one can break what I believed in that particular situation.

e. “It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose"

• This is a classic scene of humanity and divinity. I do believe in the approach of seeking God first and acting on your human instinct. I do not over-spiritualize, but I do seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in all that I do.

 

 

 

Thank you, Alex, for responding to the call to serve in a different way.  For a long time, you used to be leader's servant of the District; now you are yourself a servant leader.  Hoowaaah!

I believe you have understood well what Watchman Nee was saying in his article.  Your awareness of your position as a servant of the Lord will bear much fruit.  And it seems to me, you don't serve the Lord in order to achieve that emotional high; this is good.   Because otherwise, if we seek the emotional high, we're really serving in order to satisfy ourselves ... which is self-service, and definitely not God-honoring.

On your last point, I'm a bit concerned when you say you act on your human instinct.  Perhaps what you mean is that you think through your decisions and actions with diligence and thought.  The dangerous implication of acting on instinct suggests impulsiveness, which I don't think you are.  After all, you yourself are an accomplished businessman.  And so, I think this is what you meant, right?  Due diligence.

 As for not over-spiritualizing stuff, yes, I agree that the Lord has already gifted us with skills and competences that we bring into our service, and it is not necessary to "discern" what would seem obvious already to us.   What we want to avoid, however, is being self-sufficient, and not bringing our actions into a prayer and dedication, and acknowledging that it is the Lord that we would allow to work in us and through us.  This is not "over-spiritualization"; but rather surrender and offering up for the Lord's purpose of kingdom-building -- which is what we ought to do with all the resources, talents and gifts we have.

If we act on pure self-sufficiency, before long, our successes in the field of service will be OUR success, OUR honor, and OUR motivation.  Whereas, if we see the Lord acting in us and through us through the gifts He has blessed us with, then to God be the glory, always and forever.  Right?

This is an important lesson for all of us, not just for ourselves already in service, but for those whom God will send our way to mentor and to disciple.  May everything we do always be for the honor and glory of God.  And may the Lord be pleased with how you have stewarded your time and talents in service to many, Alex.  Bear fruit pa more, Mr. Fil-a-more!

Quote from Eddie on March 11, 2024, 4:46 pm

Quote from Gary Cabalde on February 15, 2024, 7:14 pm

b. “It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.” - I hope that this won't apply to me but only God knows. I hope that what i have with God is not just a "sentimental attachment" but a pure desire to be with Him eternally. I always go back to where i started in following the Lord; how miserable my life was until the day that the Lord begun to put order in my life....just by remembering that, my heart would leap for gratitude towards Him...Papaano ko makakalimutan ang kabutihan ng Diyos sa aking buhay? Sana sa grasya ng Diyos, i will be able to remain in Him as He remains in me until the day He will call me back.

d. “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.” In one of my prayer times, i sensed that my desire to follow God is lacking because of my "inconsistent" behavior towards Him...mabait minsan pero mas madalas makalimot na maging mabuti. I just realized that my desire won't be enough to measure my ability to remain consistent with God....ang hirap talaga maging Kristiyano. Salamat sa Diyos at napakabuti Nya sa atin....malayo pa talaga.

e. “It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose.” - Oh Lord, have mercy on my soul. By Your Love, Mercy and Grace that i can only be saved. If only i can make Him decide for myself so that i won't put hindrance for His divine purpose. Kaawaan nawa ako ng Diyos.

I can be or i am maybe an example of this sentence....i may hear God's word but my whole being is a big hindrance for His divine purpose, through my service to others, the way i treat my neighbors, the way i treat myself and the way i treat God....am i doing all of it with the right purpose, which is to love?

 

Hi Gary.  A big amen to your responses.  Just some food for thought, to move you along on this.

You say, "Mahirap talaga maging Kristiyano."  Indeed, right?  Other than being thankful for God's goodness and mercy, what's the antidote for this?  How is it possible to live a powerful Christian life?  I mean, what do YOU preach and how would YOU advise others?  Isn't this why we rely on the "power from on high"?  But that's easier said than done, unless you know exactly what kind of spirit dwells within us, and how to fan into flame that Spirit.  We need a mindset of love for God, and desire to honor Him in all that we do.  We need a mindset of love for our neighbors.  And these mindsets can't become our mantra unless we practice those crucial spiritual disciplines ("disciple" nga e, di ba?).  And in the process of practicing those disciplines, we need someone to disciple us in these matters, and some others who can hold us accountable for these disciplines.  You must have this formula down pat, and be certain that you've trained your spiritual muscles to be fit for the fight.  And you, indeed, need to be fit for the fight, cuz you're already commissioned to disciple people.  

As for the hindrances, Gary;  I suggest you do a proper examen, and determine with honesty and with specificity what are those hindrances that you believe you have put that gets in the way of your fulfilling God's purpose.  Then, discuss this with your pastoral leader, and make a plan.  You need to take advantage of our pastoral system, in order to make progress.  Being aware of these hindrances, making a private confession and committing to take action is one thing.  But holding yourself accountable to someone else (even if it's not your PL, but someone who cares for your spiritual health, and has enough courage to hold you to your plans) is the key to a transformed life.

Mahirap maging Kristiyano; lalo na kung mag-isa ka lang.  But that's the purpose behind a discipleship process.  And, if I may add (in conclusion) my personal observation about Ligaya -- although we have the pastoral structure, I think we don't use it powerfully enough to guarantee genuine discipleship growth.  Let's do this, Gary.  

Quote from Eddie on March 12, 2024, 11:39 am

Quote from Henry Salim on February 15, 2024, 11:48 pm

He mistook himself for the man he desired to be

Who we actually are and who we think we are are not always the same. A self aware person knows exactly who he really is. In most cases, we either think too highly or too less of ourselves.

In my case, the bias is that I always think of myself as less than who I want to be. In the context of us being servants, I have the desire to serve and be of use to the Lord but I have this feeling of not being good enough.  This actually hinders me from doing what I think the Lord wants me to do.

I think the reason why it is a challenge to be self aware is because the mirror I use is the world. I know the world will do everything to keep me in the world, to confuse me, to keep me away from Him.  I can do a better job of knowing myself if I ask God who I really am. He has no agenda to deceive me either way. I need to know Him more, focus on Him more and He will show me who I really am.

“It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.”

You know how it is when you are in the middle of worship in one of our gatherings. Worship leader is so eloquent in his praising, a particular song that strikes a chord in you is being sung, the volume, the lights, everything is just right. You cant help but shout out how much you love Him. And yet when you hear Him during your prayer time, you donot do what He asks you to do.

This statement reminds me to be consistent. My love for the Lord should not be based any particular circumstance or condition or else this so called love is just a sentimental attachment. I know circumstances and conditions change. I should know better than to  anchor my so called feelings for God on these things. I should not love God only when the right conditions present themselves. I should pray for the grace to love Him irregardless of the circumstance or the situation.

In a sense, if I would like my love for Him to be real and grow, I should abandon myself more to His will. To be comfortable in uncomfortable situations knowing that He is the one who placed me there, that He is there with me and that He will see me through.

“The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

If I equate my ability to follow the Lord is equal to my desire to follow Him, I will be doing very little following. Desiring to follow the Lord is a very good place to start but relying on desire or will can only get us so far. I have learned that on my own I cannot accomplish anything but with the grace He provides there is nothing I cannot do. By desiring, I actually open the door to let His grace come into my life. It is His grace that allows me to follow Him.

 

Thank you, Henry, for your well articulated thoughts.  Allow me some words of encouragement and clarification.

First off, you're not alone in assessing yourself using the lens of the world.  It's natural.  And the world, the flesh and the devil will do one of two things: either condemn you as a loser, or inflate you as a winner.  And we get trapped in this mindset. 

But count yourself blessed in that God has created you in His own image.  But of course, we may be a very poor carbon copy, but the essence of who we are is just that.  And we do have the potential to shine and radiate the glory of God.  Refer to the following verses:  Psalm 8:5, Matt 10:30-31, 1 Cor 1:26-31.  Those were written for you, Henry.

Second, consistency is everyone's challenge.  You're probably going to a District retreat in the next few days leading to Holy Week.  And yes, you're probably going to have to deal with this issue, like everyone else.  In fact, that's the topic I'm preaching on for a retreat for our Singles District this Saturday.  And stop saying you're not self-aware, Henry.  You're so funny.  The fact that you say you're inconsistent means that you are VERY self-aware.  

Remember, we have our spiritual disciplines to practice.  These disciplines are taught to us for this very purpose.  And not only are we taught these disciplines, we are provided with brothers along the journey who can keep us consistent.  Let's use our discipleship groups (our men's group) for this very purpose.  I'd even use the word "strategic", because this is a battle.  And if we don't take advantage of our men's group to hold us accountable to strictly conform to these disciplines, then we throw away a very vital weapon that God has provided us.  And, being a senior leader yourself, you need to ensure that your PL's wield this consistently.  Never take for granted that everyone has a tendency to backslide.  The discipleship journey is like going up on a downward escalator.  We need to exert effort, otherwise the world, the flesh and the devil, will just pull us down.  

Which brings me to your last point.  Yes, God's grace is sufficient.  And one of His blessings is community. Right?   You and I would say, "On my own, I can't ..."  So, there.  God gives us each other, like iron that sharpens iron, Henry.  Let's use our pastoral system (aka our discipleship mission) to ensure that you, and I, and those under us and above us, are all staying on track in this lifelong journey of discipleship.   

Quote from Eddie on March 12, 2024, 10:20 pm

Quote from Noel Lugue on February 17, 2024, 9:22 am

b. “It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.”

Mr Nee was saying that our emotional reactions in loving God may not be pure or deep as we thought it to be. Its possible as we utterly express our love for he Lord, we think 

we are the kind of people we are suppose to be.

Reaction :

This does not apply to me. I am on the other side of the pendulum, calculating and always humbling myself before the Lord. I feel, Im always afraid to commit mistakes. Did i do the right thing or not?. In my prayers , the Lord wants me to let go  of too much calculation and be more courageous and confident in Him.

c. “It is a horrible thing to tell a lie; but it is a pitiful thing to believe a lie.”

Nee was saying that Peter in the outburst of His emotions believe in what he declared. He did not lie. But his emotions make him believe in a lie.

 A prayer that the Lord taught me : "Lord I raise up my mind and my heart to you."

This prayer always prepare me to go beyond human thinking . Peter was concern about His Master going to Jerusalem. His emotions are so high because he was just honored by Jesus, and being impulsive to care for His Teacher, he uttered the wrong words.  I know that putting our mind and heart to where Jesus wants to converse with us is easier said than  done . But we just need to persevere to go beyond our emotions and trust in His Spirit.

e. “It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose.”

This statement is self explanatory. Like Peter , I can encounter and experience divine revelation.  But I can also be a hindrance to Gods purpose. One example I can think is because I sought the Lord in Ligaya ng Panginoon commitment  and service, I began to have more wisdom and knowledge in leading , in doing service and ministry. Through the years , I experience the Lord speaking to me our to our pastoral team.  HOWEVER, there was a period in my life where I became legalistic. 

I know better. I am more committed than  that brother.  Matagal na ko sa ligaya.

You know the story, this will manifest in the way I treat people and brothers and sisters. Instead of Love or looking with compassion, I had a tendency for example  to look at others failure in their commitments. Hindi naman masama ang mag correct. BUT COMPASSION has to come first. Praise God for rescuing me to that kind of Pharisaic life.

 

I like the way you structured your response, Noel.  First explanation, then interpretation.  And your interpretations and understanding of Watchman Nee's lessons are all correct. 

Let me share my reactions to your personal applications of the lessons.  

It's good that you don't let your emotional highs rule your decisions, especially on the matter of being overconfident and bilib sa sarili like Peter.  Actually many brothers said the same thing.  What I find interesting in your case is that you say you over-calculate; I suppose this over-thinking then probably paralyzes you into making any decision.  This is so true even in the business world, isn't it?  I don't really know what kinds of tough decisions you've had to make in your discipleship journey, Noel, including your service, but sooner or later, as you take on bigger service responsibilities, you're gonna have to make some tough calls. Fortunately, there's going to be pastoral cover over you, always.  

But maybe the tougher decisions are those that involve our own personal life choices.  And, like some of the brothers, some of those life choices have to do with our call to mission and service -- where the typical mindset is insecurity and uncertainty about the call and about our competence.  Right?  Did you go through that yourself?  Hopefully you've moved forward in expressing trust in the Lord and believing that His Holy Spirit is sufficient and powerful.  Ito lang ang masasabi ko sa iyo tungkol dito sa bagay na ito:  how would YOU advise someone whom you call to serve, and that someone was reluctant and insecure?   

Finally, your reference to a Pharisaic and legalistic attitude is really something that we, leaders and those long-in-community have to guard against.  On the one hand, we need to hold everyone accountable to what they say they would do.  On the other hand, we need to be patient and understanding of how people are able to live in accordance with God's plans and purposes and commands. 

My view is that the commands of Jesus are non-negotiable.  And we need to use our pastoral system of disciple-making in order to exhort and urge our brethren to live this out as faithfully as possible.  On the other hand, our "way of life" prescriptions, we have to realize that there is a good purpose behind these prescriptions, but we need to be open to people's readiness and willingness to conform.  That's why we give them time to investigate.  Remember.  Everyone has the option whether to conform or not; and for those who will not conform given plenty of time to investigate, they need to see that they have an option to follow their leadings and their preferred way of life, but not in our community.  Malamang alam mo na ito.  

Finally, compassion is absolutely essential, because the brethren under our cover will need to believe and trust that we care for them genuinely.  But -- and this is crucial -- compassion without discipline is not transformative; as a parent you know this.  The parting command of Jesus goes this way:  "Make disciples of all nations ... and teach them to obey all everything I have commanded you."  Matt 28:19-20

 

 

Quote from Eddie on March 12, 2024, 11:15 pm

Quote from Dom Hormigos on February 17, 2024, 11:34 am

1. “It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.”

It is normal to many Christians who are new to the faith or when difficult circumstances arise. I experienced this personally in many situations in life. The most recent was when we experienced two miscarriages and even to the point of thinking that we won't be able to conceive. It lead me to question God's being omnipotent. I was easily driven by my emotion and chose not to trust in the Lord as being all-powerful yet also all-knowing. After the second miscarriage, we decided to take a time off and it was this time that the Lord revealed to us that it is all part of a big plan. At that point we accepted to trust in the Lord whether we will be able to conceive or not. If we won't, then it was not God's plan for us. If we will, then we wholeheartedly welcome it. 

2. “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

The desire to follow Him is indeed not the measure but is just an expression of acceptance. The true measure relies on how firm and how deep we are to the commitment that entails in following the Lord. This is not easy, as the way of the Lord leads us to obstacles that challenges our commitment to stay in the path. Being ready to be challenged is a skill that develops through time and experience. I think there is no easy path. It is by God's grace alone that we are able to prepare ourself and fully trust in the Lord and stay in the course. 

 
3. “It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose.”

In my personal experience, it seems like it becomes a natural response for me to pause when the circumstance ahead seems daunting. Forgetting that it is the Lord himself who revealed His plan for me. In this area, I believe I am still growing. There's so much for me to learn and mature in this area. 

Great response, Dom.  It seems like the article resonated well with you; and you got correctly the key points of Watchman Nee.  

Let me just reinforce what you shared as it applies to you.

Yes, for early believers, God allows the experience of emotional highs to soften our hard hearts.  But as we mature, we need to make decisions to follow Christ more soberly because carrying our crosses ain't a walk in the park.  And God deals with each of us in His own sovereign, loving, and wise way.  And the lesson people will derive from your beautiful life story with Jen is one of acceptance of God's perfect plan; and His ways are not our ways. 

You're right, whether Jen conceived or not, the important thing is that you honored God by trusting Him and being content and at peace knowing that God loves you one way or the other.  Which of these do you think is more inspiring:  Phil 4:6-7 or Habbakuk 3:17-18.   And Watchman Nee's lesson says that we ought not to make our faith and love of God conditional on whether he makes us happy with "answered prayers" or not.  Habbakuk couldn't have expressed it any better.

On your second reflection, spot on, Dom.  Ilang beses mo na akong narinig magsabi sa mga nag-s-serve:  "Pahirapan ka sana ni Lord."   You've heard the saying:  "When the going gets rough, the rough get going."  Jesus warned would-be followers:  "Mahirap itong pagagawa ko sa inyo; handa ka ba?"  This is precisely to temper the enthusiasm of would-be followers, thinking that the road is wide and smooth.  "Fully trust in the Lord" is the key; and this is what gives Him glory.  Because if we ever think we can take any credit for anything that we accomplish, we insult God; and Jesus warns, that credit is all you'll get, buddy.  Hanggang dyan ka na lang; sorry.   (Matt 6:16)  

And finally, the pause.  Yes, "pausing" is good.  But delaying tactics is not good.  The hesitance of the Israelites to trust God and to enter the promised land (Numbers 13) caused them a 40 year pause, and in fact none of that generation ever eventually got to enter the promised land.  Pause some more, sige ka.  

And that's why Moses's last encouragement to Joshua (his successor) was "Be strong and courageous."  (Deut 31:6)   Don't forget, God will always, always, always be victorious.  And this is an important lesson for you, but a key lesson you will need to encourage others whom God will send for you to disciple, Dom.  You may not be around to see the victory in your actions and decisions, but your trust and faithfulness demonstrated in unconditional obedience to the Lord will be surely rewarded because of how God is honored by it.  Let the apparent failure of Jesus on the cross remind you of that truth. 

Quote from Eddie on March 12, 2024, 11:56 pm

Quote from Joseph Henson on February 18, 2024, 2:47 am

a. “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”

Watchman Nee may have implied that Peter “projected” his idealized character unto himself (without malice) instead of a more realistic assessment of his current state. This resonates with me very much as early in my discipleship journey, I thought that I would not fall for sexual temptations (having not fallen before my conversion). However, just over a year after, I fell and it took a number of years to repent and kick the habit. More than a decade of sobriety after, I became complacent that this was already a part of my past, only for me to fall again.  Thus, I have to be cautious, but this should not be an excuse not to do what He wants me to do. I have to be continuously vigilant while also focusing on and trusting in the Lord to protect and give me strength each day.

b. “It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.”

The author invites us to assess whether our love for the Lord is based solely on pleasant feelings or sentimental thoughts we tell ourselves (or even publicly profess). Granted that this could be a starting point (and on occasion, may also give us the drive to continue on or push further), our love should not remain or be anchored on an emotional or conceptual level but lived out in our decisions and actions. This made me appreciate our teachings on Emotions in the Christian Life, where we should master our emotions instead of the other way around. More importantly, community life invites us to go beyond prayer meeting emotional “highs” by supporting discipleship in all areas of our life – family, work, etc., where love of the Lord then becomes more tangible.

d. “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

The author frames our “ability” to follow the Lord as much more than our “desire”. Again, I believe that having the desire is helpful but not the complete picture. Our ability is shaped by many other factors, such as sound teaching, formative experiences, and of course, grace from the Lord. Thus, in order to increase our ability to follow Him, we should be open to being formed by Him in a multi-faceted way (and our desire may also increase as a result).

 

Thank you, Joseph.  I echo Erick's remark about your not sugar-coating your struggles in this first instance of your reflection.  One thing I always remind people:  "If it was easy to be good on our own, we wouldn't need a Savior."  The battle against the world, the flesh and Satan himself, will not be over until Jesus comes again.  That's the truth.  In the meantime, Jesus offers us His blood; the Holy Spirit continually renews us.  Fortunately, God doesn't expect perfection; and Jesus died for us precisely because we aren't perfect.  Nevertheless, you and I need to fight the good fight of faith, together as brothers.  And don't forget that, Joseph; God has placed in your midst brothers who can help you deal with your weaknesses, in much the same way that God will send you others brothers who need encouragement and discipling from you.  All I can say for now is that I pray you be enriched by the personal confession and reflection of Paul in Romans 7:7-25.

As for your comment on the emotional highs, spot on.  I agree that those emotional highs are used by the Lord to soften hard hearts.  And, praise be to God, I still have occasional sentimental moments with the Lord; but this is because of the intimacy that He and I share with one another, and not because I make this a condition for my faith in Him.  And the Lord will never deprive me of this.   And I've been through enough rough patches in my life to know that God has pruned me of a dependence on those emotional highs.  

But speaking of emotional highs, some of the brothers shared -- with whom I could very well relate -- that sometimes our emotional highs come from our inflated belief in ourselves, and our "giftedness", and so on; especially when they receive commendations and appreciation for their work of service.  Although that doesn't seem to be your problem, you need to be aware of this because -- who knows -- you may have to disciple someone in the future who goes through this.

Lastly, your reference to abilities vs desires reminds me of the expression "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."  Or the cop-out statement that someone would say to justify a failed promise:  "It's the intention that counts."  The truth is, just like in the case of Peter, Satan will not surrender the battle just because of our good intentions.  In fact, he would probably already plant the seed of a lie even in our "good" intentions.  You're correct in pointing out that our formation is key.  Thankfully, and this I've said to many other brothers in this Discussion Forum, we have a pastoral system that supports us through our journey and formation.  Please use this pastoral system -- including opportunities like this Fireside Chat to learn and to grow -- and the partnership with brothers who would hold us accountable to our spiritual disciplines, to our struggles with temptation, and dealing with our egos.  And soon, it will be your turn to sharpen others with your iron, Joseph.  

Quote from Eddie on March 13, 2024, 12:35 am

Quote from Erick Flores on February 18, 2024, 1:00 pm

a. “He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”

Peter genuinely desires to love Jesus and follow Him unreservedly. But in the scenario of the last supper, he clearly does the opposite with his burst of emotion by failing to listen to Jesus and humble himself to obey the will of God.

Sometimes I find myself like Peter, a problem solver rather than a follower of Jesus, either emotionally distracted by circumstances, or failing to hear Jesus’ word because I am full of myself trying to save situations.

In times like these, I remind myself of the wise word from a brother, “Pray pa more!” Allow the grace of the Holy Spirit to increase in me and guide me to understand Jesus’ message.

d. “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

The desire to follow the Lord is anchored on our increasing knowledge of who God is and our belief on His love, mercy and promises. Our abilities to take action on this belief might vary on different circumstances but our desire to love and serve the Lord should constantly grow as God reveals Himself to us and accomplish His purpose.

God’s grace is sufficient. I am always awed remembering the time I was supposed to lose all my ability to work and to serve. But by God’s goodness and mercy, and the intercession of brothers and sisters, I survived and do not recall being hopeless. Perhaps, the Lord heard a brother’s prayer that I may be protected from any frustration or disapointment and have peace.

e. “It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose.”

Peter’s devotion to Jesus is true, thus, the revelation of the Father through him. But being governed by his emotion allowed Satan’s lie for him to turn away from obedience to God’s will into believing the twisted truth that he is the one who can save Jesus.

Here I would like to focus on Jesus, the perfect revelation of the Father with His perfect obedience. He allowed His emotion to be expressed in humility: recognizing His Father’s word, submitting to God’s will and rebuking the lies of Satan. He is the way to the divine purpose. He is the Firm Foundation, the Rock from whom our characters, as living stones, should be transformed.

Thank you for sharing your gift of wisdom, Erick, as evident in your analysis and reflection.

Yes, we need to watch our egos and our presumptuous motives especially when we think we have what it takes; just like Peter.  Fortunately, for God's servants, He has a way to humble them: either by having a Saul to chase them and hunt them down through the desert like David, or by surprising them and cause them to panic just like Peter confronted in the quiet of the night, or by implanting a thorn on their side just like Paul.  Me, my formula to servant leaders is simple:  "Sana pahirapan ka ni Lord."  Right?

Secondly, I love what you say when you say our desires to follow the Lord should be fueled by our ever-increasing knowledge of who God is.  And yes, God's grace is sufficient; but it comes in several forms.  In most cases, that grace should come in the form of a pastoral cover within a discipleship structure -- which is what we have in our Ligaya culture.  The truth is, it's not enough that one immerses himself in reading scripture; good intentions need to be reinforced by people who will help us and hold us accountable to act on our good intentions.  Such is what you need to and hopefully already practice as a servant leader on the disciples under your tutelage.    Right?

Finally, as to the hindrances that we place in the way of God's purposes, it's funny isn't it?  Oftentimes we hear of "spiritual oppression", when we discern that Satan is up to his no good tricks to discourage us from doing God's will.  But Satan's bag of tricks doesn't just manifest in the laptop that crashes, or the boss that schedules a meeting or assigns work on the weekend of your retreat, or the cough that suddenly comes upon you before a speaking engagement.

Just to cite one example: I refer back to your first point, about being over confident and full of ourselves.  Didn't Jesus warn us "How hard it is for the rich (aka the smart, the intelligent, the gifted) to enter the kingdom of heaven."  This is one hindrance that is self-inflicted.  Sure, the Lord may use our efforts to save others (say, through the preaching or pastoring that we render), but sadly, we ourselves may not be saved because we prefer our reward to be the inflated ego.  Right?

And this is why, Erick, we leaders need to be vigilant, and be purposeful in supporting each other, even as we commit to support those under our care.     Let us not presume that just because we are already in positions of service leadership, we don't need pastoring and discipling.  

Quote from Eddie on March 13, 2024, 12:53 am

Quote from Johnny Yu on February 18, 2024, 8:56 pm

He mistook himself for the man he desired to be. - I can relate to this statement that sometimes we want to believe that we are capable of being "someone" we probably idolize or look up to; and eventually, we come into a reality that we are far from such "person".  Akala mo gwapo at matalino ka, yun pala, cute ka lang.  ha ha.

It is woefully possible that our fancied love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment. - Yes, it is very possible especially when things are good and well.  Whenever we come out of Sunday mass, or after a retreat, the emotional connection with our Lord is so high that we feel that we are standing on unshakeable ground.  But in an instance, we can easily skip our prayer time, due to pressing matters at hand.

The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him. - Yes, this is definitely true.  We all desire to be good person, and following Him is what we were taught to do.  However, whenever an opportunity exist to do what is good, there is always the tendency of giving excuses, out of selfishness or just not wanting to get out of comfort zone.

 

 

I like how you've condensed the lessons in simple terms, Johnny.  Jackpot!  Let me just build on what you said.

First.  Sino ba dapat ang idol natin?  E si Hesus, right?  Basta Sya ang idol natin, at Sya ang ating tularan palagi at wala nang iba, we're on the right track.  In fact, that's the work of the Holy Spirit, to transform us day by day to bear the fruit of the Spirit -- which are the qualities of Jesus Christ.  The problem is -- as the example of Peter shows -- kung tayo ay sobrang bilib sa sarili.  Patay kang bata ka; just like Peter.

Next.  The emotional highs.  Well, I believe the Lord allows first-time believers to experience some of this in order to soften their hard hearts.  But, you're right, as we mature in our faith, we ought to know that the most fertile ground for the seed of the gospel to grow is in the dry soil of resistance, of pushbacks, of nasty temptations, and so on.  Our faith is tested by fire, and by the cross that we have to carry, especially the heavy cross of our egos.

Finally, you do remember the expression: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", right?  Ito ang point ni Watchman Need, di ba?  We don't earn eternal paradise with just good intentions.  In fact, James teaches this lesson so well when he says faith without works is dead (James 2:18-26).

All these are valuable lessons, Johnny, and I'm glad you know these lessons well.  Let's strive to grow in these disciplines, so that we will be equipped for the good work of service that the Lord has planned in advance for us to do.

Quote from Eddie on March 13, 2024, 1:42 am

Quote from Sherwin Lao on February 18, 2024, 11:39 pm

1. “It is a horrible thing to tell a lie; but it is a pitiful thing to believe a lie.”

We all know that a lie is a lie. Whether or not it is meant to cause good (than harm), it is still a lie. But why do people lie? There may be tons of reasons to cover multiple situations. But one thing is for sure, when we lie, we hold back the truth. Therefore, if God is Truth, Whenever we lie, we hold back God. We conceal God’s message of Truth. We fear that , the truth will bring out emotions. And these emotions may lead to unfavorable setbacks to relationships. But we are to be reminded in 1 Thessalonians 2:4, but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts. The devil is the prince of lies, he will tirelessly lure us into his trap. If we do not speak the truth, then the Lord our God is not with us. So let us always be mindful when we speak our words. It should contain the Truth , and nothing but the truth. 

 2. “The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

My desire to follow the Lord has always been consistent. But I confess, my actions and ability to do so speak otherwise. I sometimes caught myself in a situation where I’m doing the opposite of what is expected for me to be done. But thank God, he has always been merciful and loving. Truly it is not easy to be a disciple of Jesus. But it is also true that it is not impossible. With divine intervention and grace, we are being changed every single time. We just need to be open to really experience and openly accept God’s pruning. He will work and mold you like a Potter with his clay. I’m still a work in progress, and I continue to remind myself to be humble and welcome (and trust) God’s workings in my life.

3. “It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose.”

Have you ever experienced a divine revelation before? Thankfully, I had. It was both a blessing and a privilege to hear God speak to you either through a prophesy or through an encounter. But admittedly, it was also a creepy experience. As a young boy and later on a young man, I frequently experienced premonitions or Déjà Vu. Where things that happened (or happening) seem to be the exact result of a previous visions. I marvel at these situations but at the same time wonder why am I experiencing this. More often than not, I just ignore them and move on with my life. A good question to ask ourselves, are we allowing the Lord to use us and our God-given gifts to bless His people? If not, then why? Are we holding back because we are afraid of the possible implications? Or probably, we are too afraid to be used, because of the perceptions and what others may think of us. We should not hold back, allow the Spirit of God to radiate and flow from us. That it may be a source of blessing and a channel of grace to others.

Thank you for your profound insights, Sherwin.  For instance, position about  us holding back God (who is Truth) whenever we tell a lie.  Then you go on to declare it is not easy to be a disciple of Christ (AMEN to that!); but not impossible.  And finally, you propose that we should never hold the Spirit back, and allow Him to radiate through us to others.

Just to build on this wisdom, let me share a few thoughts.

There are facts, and there are untruths.  When we know something to be a fact, but believe otherwise or speak otherwise, then we lie.  But sometimes, as in the case of Watchman Nee's reference to Peter, there are opinions, not facts.  And each person is entitled to his own opinion, right?  Well, in the case of Peter, he had a very high opinion of himself, and his leadership bravado; that's why he declared before Jesus (like the leader that he thought himself to be before the other apostles) his fight-to-death stance.  It's like a basketball team who had invested little time in practice, boost their own courage before a game and say "kaya natin ito!"  The lesson for us here, Sherwin, is that we need to be careful of these seeds are planted in our minds by Satan.  He can either plant a seed of over-confidence and self-sufficiency, or a seed of self-doubt and false humility.  On the one hand, we act without consulting the Lord; and on the other hand, we don't act and prevent the Lord's blessings to flow.  The first situation is the story of Peter.  The second situation is the situation of the Israelites who didn't think they had strength enough to enter the Promised Land and chase the Canaanites out.  This lesson is vital for us, not just for ourselves, but also for those God will put in our care.

On the matter of our transformation, and God's pruning, all I want to add is that God's grace works also through the men who sharpen our irons with their irons.  As I have indicated to your other brothers in this Discussion Forum, God has given us a pastoral structure of discipling, so that we help each other act on their good intentions, to hold them accountable to take the necessary steps at following the Lord's will.  We have many good intentions, right?  But these are not enough.  We need to act on them.  And we can't do this on our own.  We need to commit before some other person who cares for our transformation, that we will take action to change, and give him the permission to hold us accountable to do so.  This is so vital, but -- unfortunately -- sometimes, we (leaders) just presume that our members will eventually get to it.  Maybe that's how we were discipled, too; with much tolerance and "compassion".  But, listen, Sherwin.  Compassion without discipline is NOT transformative.  Parents know this lesson very well, when dealing with their children.

And for your last reflection, let just add a simple antidote to our hesitance to pursue what we would otherwise have "discerned" to be God's will.  First of all, God has revealed much of what we ought to be doing on a day to day basis; and even more clearly through the instructions and commands of Jesus.  There may be, as you experience, unique and specific urgings that we would receive.  The truth is, the hindrances that we place are actually very real; that's why we had to recalibrate the entire community (including globally through the Sword of the Spirit) with the conduct of the Power from On High retreat series. 

All I can add to that now, Sherwin, is two things: 

(a) Paul said it correctly, and this we need to do always.  Not just as followers and fellow believers, but also as disciplers.  Paul says, "Fan into flame the Spirit that you received .." 2 Tim 1:6-7.    Whatever it takes, let's do this!

(b) For me, the antidote to all sorts of hindrances (laziness, fear, busy-ness, self-sufficiency) we may be tempted to allow to hamper our discipleship journey, our spiritual calling and/or our mission, is a fervent desire to honor God in all that we do.  That's it.  Just focus in taking any and all actions with the (genuine) intent to honor God in ALL things.  Then, God WILL empower us with whatever it takes, because indeed, He delights in the honor of His name, always.

Hope this helps, Sherwin.    

Quote from Eddie on March 13, 2024, 2:31 am

Quote from Dennis Sulit on February 19, 2024, 12:26 am

“He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.”

• Peter had an intense desire to follow the Lord except that he was doomed to fail because of his flawed human nature - erratic, emotional, unstable and ever changing with the times.
• I often find myself in the same situation wherein I truly desire to live my life for the Lord especially when in prayer during mass, a gathering or a retreat. But the moment I step out of the church or prayer meeting and go out to the real world, I easily transform back to my old self and forget my promises to the Lord. How I wish I could always stay in the confines of the church or community where I’m constantly reminded of God’s presence and his grace.

“The measure of our ability to follow the Lord is not assessed by the measure of our desire to follow Him.”

• Oftentimes our desires are ruled by our emotions that are ever changing. If we rely more on ourselves and less on the Lord, it is like building a house on sandy ground that is easily washed away during floods.
• In the few short years that I have been following the Lord, I realize that it is all about grace. There is totally nothing that I have contributed to the blessings received or the good works rendered except for giving my “yes” to the Lord. I am but a partaker of his grace and the Lord does the rest.

“It is possible for such people to receive divine revelation, but it is also possible for them to put hindrances in the way of the divine purpose.”

• Peter was blessed to have received divine revelation but cursed that his emotional instability did not allow him to understand the true purpose of God’s will. It was only after Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was able to equip him for the mission he was being prepared for.
• I must be careful to always be discerning of God’s word. I can sometimes be excited and become overzealous when a tempered response is required. Other times I become unsure, timid or fearful when a call to action is warranted. We are blessed that we have a Spirit-led pastoral system to guide us in discerning God’s call for us as individuals and as a community.

God bless you for your reflections, Dennis.  You have understood and adapted Watchman Nee's article in your personal circumstance as a disciple.  May I encourage you with a few comments, and address you both as a disciple and also as a discipler/leader.

I hear you when you say, I wish I didn't have to go out into the real world out there and just be in the safe confines of the Church and a loving community.  Yes, it is easy to be good and remain good there, right?  But you know, of course, how silly that is.  After all, isn't gold tested by fire?  And isn't iron sharpened with the force of another iron?  

Oh, and by the way, Peter isn't the only one doomed to fail because of his flawed character.  Ain't that the story of us all?  We're all sinners in need of salvation.  We're all wounded soldiers who need healing.  We're all sheep that would go astray if they had no good shepherd to follow.   And so, like the tax collector we approach God and say, "have mercy on me, a sinner" (Luke 18:13). 

I agree too with your statement that we are all "partakers of God's grace".  Paul writes: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10.  But in order for that to happen, we do have to begin with a desire and a decision, right?  The decision we all need to make (and we have made that decision), is to follow Jesus, and only Jesus.  Without that decision, we are doomed to the world, the flesh and the devil. 

But that decision must also be ignited by a desire.  And I'm not referring to that boastful desire to be the best warrior among the rest, just like Peter bragged about.  When you think of it, that desire was self-serving, wasn't it?  Instead, the desire that will work in our favor always, is the genuine desire to honor God in everything that we do.  If that is what motivates our actions, and our decisions -- namely to honor God -- then, indeed, God will move heaven and earth to enable us to do just that. 

This is an important lesson, Dennis, and one that you and I ought to teach all those that come behind us, and that they might find us faithful to be moved by that desire.

Finally, let me reinforce your reference to the pastoral system as a blessing for our journey of transformation.  First of all, there is something about this pastoral system that I am concerned many have taken for granted.  In fact, I'm so worried that many don't even realize the true essence of the discipleship (or what we call the "pastoral") model.  We can't just have good intentions and not act on them, right?  Not even if we were fully aware of all the spiritual disciplines that -- if acted on -- will result in our transformation.  This is Watchman Nee's point.  But the truth is, the world, the flesh, and the devil will find ways for our good intentions to just rot in hell.  (The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.)  A properly working pastoral system, or what others would refer to as a discipleship model, is one where you, as a disciple, declare your good intentions to another person (his pastoral leader/discipler), and where you both agree on an action plan for you to pursue that intention and practice those spiritual disciplines, and finally where you hold yourself accountable to that person to actually take action according to plan, and to excise disciplinary action (of some sort) in case of failure to do so.  

What usually happens is that we confess our weakness, and express a good intention.  We get prayed over.  We are instructed what to do.  And that's it.  Weeks or months later, we may revisit the situation, and we feebly give excuses and confess again, and ascribe it to a "weakness" or a "struggle", or whatever favorite euphemism we use to excuse each other's respectable sins and lack of discipline.  Sometimes, nobody follows up, and it's not discussed; and we're all presumed to be living in a state of some grace.  Right?  Sure, maybe compassion rules.  But compassion without discipline is NOT transformative.  Heb 12:11 says "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." 

Anyway, enough said, Dennis, except this:  As leaders and should-be leaders we need to be cognizant of this beautiful gift of community that God has placed before us.   Let's use it, for God's glory.  After all, it IS actually what the great commission is, right?  Matt 28: 19-20 says "Go and make disciples ... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Quote from Eddie on March 13, 2024, 2:39 am

Quote from Jorel Mateo on February 19, 2024, 8:23 am

A. He mistook himself for the man he desired to be.

Desire is good.  Desire to be good is just the first step.  However, this tempts us to believe too much in ourselves.  And this causes us to rely on our own abilities and capabilities. 

When his happens, we forget about the Lord, (who makes all things happen) and then we eventually fail.  We cant win by ourselves 100% of the time.

We need the Lord's grace and not just our own skills and desire, for us to have a solid and stable rock to stand on.

 

B.  It is woefully possible that our love for the Lord is little more than sentimental attachment.

 

Actions driven by feelings or emotions are superficial and not deeply rooted and therefore are not stable.

I may feel that we are doing our best to Love the Lord, and worse sometimes to believe that we are also entitled to more love from him.  This may lead me to rely on false or unreal standing ground.  That I am good already since Im doing the best for the Lord.

I really need to change the way I decide and act.  NOT thru emotions, but by the Lord's grace.

 

C.  It is a horrible thing to tell a lie, but it is pitiful thing to believe a lie.

It is definitely not the Lord's work to be lying.  Moreso, to believe a lie is worse because it is not founded on truth.  

 

 

 

 

I agree with you 100%, Jorel, when you say that we can't be good on our own efforts.  I've often said, "If it was easy to be good, we wouldn't need a savior."  Right?

Not only do we need the Lord's grace, we need to be aware of the necessary and proven spiritual disciplines that leads to our transformation.  And intention and knowledge is not enough.  We need to act on this.  Fortunately, we have our pastoral system to help us act on our good intentions, where we hold ourselves accountable to our pastoral leaders (our formators, or our disciplers) to act on these spiritual disciplines.  Sana ol leaders do this.  And you, Jorel, together with the other brothers in this Discussion Forum (Fireside Chat) ought to be diligent at this.

As for the emotions and actions, actually, the emotions that come from our actions can inspire us to do more.  Take the rah rah speech of a coach to his team in half-time.  However, that rah rah speech ain't going to do any good if the team had not invested the necessary time to practice.  Right? 

In the case of Peter, my opinion is that his bravado was motivated by him acting out like a "leader" before this gang of apostles.  He wanted to exert his leadership by saying, "Maybe they will abandon you, but me, never!!"  His motivation was misplaced, and his bravado proved to be his embarrassment. 

More than desiring the happy feeling of being loved, my suggestion to you and the other brothers is this:  Desire only and always to honor God.  Do this, and God will be pleased and reward you with peace and joy beyond all understanding.

And you're absolutely right about the evil of lying.  But, unfortunately, we usually think of lying as something between ourselves and others.  The lesson from Peter is more serious than this.  It is when we lie to ourselves.   The tricky part about this, though, is it is often impossible for us to think that we are lying to ourselves.  We think we are not worthy of God's love; that's a lie, but we believe in that lie.  We think we will not be able to do a good job of, say, serving others.  That's true if we don't rely on the Holy Spirit.  But it's a lie, if we think God calls to serve only those who are able.  In both these cases, it's actually Satan's lie that we believe in.  And we don't know it, because we tell it to ourselves; or more accurately he whispers it to us in our heads; so it's like we're the ones thinking these thoughts.  And that's why Watchman Nee is saddened when we succumb to those lies of Satan.  All we need is to read the story of Eve and how Satan whispered in her ear those thoughts that caused damnation for all mankind.  

Again, this is why our pastoral system needs to be in place.  You need it; I need it.  And those that follow us needs it from us.  Let's fight the good fight, Jorel.