Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 4:05 pm

Quote from Joseph Henson on September 9, 2024, 9:46 pm

1. I am very much a work in progress regarding discerning the 3 different kinds of messages:
   • the words he is uttering – when I was new in leading small groups, I tended to remember the specific details that a brother has shared to me. Now, I realize a bad habit of not remembering enough since I wanted to focus on what I think are the important aspects (in the name of convenience), when there might be more critical matters in the other details being shared.
   • the words he is holding back – having some background in audit, I do have a tendency to dig further than what was said and even challenge the statements. However, I have a tendency to test out my hypothesis, usually based on logic alone, which is naturally biased based on experience and convenience (again). I may be simplifying or leading the discussion towards an area or conclusion that I am comfortable with, in order to dispense tried and tested solutions, as Watchman Nee has explained.
   • the words that he cannot utter that lie in the depths of his spirit – We do say a prayer and invite the Spirit before having a 1-to-1 but I need to listen to the Spirit more while we are having the conversation.
2. I think I need to improve most in not being subjective. I have a tendency to put decisions into context based on historical data or an established theory. It is difficult for me to listen with a blank slate, that actually relies more on the work of the Spirit than on pure reasoning.

Come, Holy Spirit. We praise and thank You for all You are doing in our lives. Work in me and in those that I encounter that we may yield to Your leading and be filled with Your grace. Free us from any bondage of the world and of the flesh, and protect us from any attacks of the evil one. May I be able to listen well to my brother and to You. May our conversation bear forth fruit that You desire. May all that we say and do be for Your greater glory. Amen.

3.  Yes, I agree that a man has a tendency to keep to himself and try to solve the problem on his own (or with the Lord alone) and would not want to bother others regarding his personal concerns. I think that men would open up more given time and seeing consistency that those who open up are not condemned but helped in a brotherly way (i.e encouraging, life-giving). To some extent, the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of. Also, I have opened to the brothers that I need their help for me to serve them as their pastoral leader, and it may also trigger men’s tendency to want to be of help. Lastly, I have experienced the most powerful 1-to-1s during or after retreats, so joining these may allow them to be moved by the Spirit in these “God moments”.

Joseph, The Auditor.  🙂  An auditor has some standards against which he determines whether there is compliance or not; and his role is to ensure that -- regardless of reason or circumstance -- compliance is key; bahala na ang company to find a solution.  Right?    

And that's why, you're right.  You do have to put on another mindset when dealing with those whom we pastor and disciple, because our goal is to help them deal with their "non-compliance" (to God's will) in a compassionate and effective way.  As I shared with the other brothers in this study group, we can't do what comes "naturally" (either by way of our nature as men-eager-to-solve-problems-immediately, or as in your case, those with mindsets defined by business practices).  We need the Holy Spirit to fill us with the necessary love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self-control.  Name your virtue needed for listening ... it's all there. 

But, congrats, I believe you've correctly absorbed all the key learning points from this chapter by Watchman Nee.  

And regarding my probing about the particular challenges we face with men, you came up with a solution that almost no one else in this group (so far that I've reviewed more than half of the submissions already) had thought about ... and which I volunteered to recommend to them to try.  Namely when you said, "the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of.  Also, I have opened to the brothers that I need their help for me to serve them as their pastoral leader, and it may also trigger men’s tendency to want to be of help." 

That's exactly what I suggested to the others to try.   I think if we go first, and to model honesty and humility and trust, by being the first one to be vulnerable with our problems/challenges/weaknesses/sin, then by doing that we're signaling to the brother that (a) you trust him; (b) you consider this to be "safe space"; and (c) it's ok to have problems; and (d) you appreciate his advice as well.  I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do.  In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions?   Sana ol.  🙂

So yon, Joseph.  Thanks for your diligent submission.  God bless you.

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 4:28 pm

Quote from Dom Hormigos on September 17, 2024, 11:37 pm

1. In my current job, we were trained to do consultative selling where we get to listen to our customers more than presenting our solutions. Despite this, I still am tempted to focus more on giving input rather than having an attentive mind and heart. I must admit that I am still a work in progress in this area and might need more practice to fully grasp the Christian way of thinking. I personally rate myself 4/10 in this area. 
2. Listening sympathetically is a technique that I need to focus and improve on. There’s a tendency that we undermine what people under our care is really going thru. Based on the article, we can only listen with a discerning mind and heart guided by God. To put oneself on the shoe of the brother experiencing these concerns, helps me see a big and deeper picture of the situation and the brother’s response to these concerns. This will significantly change the way I will respond to the brother’s concern allowing him to be more open. My prayer: Lord Jesus, teach me your ways to see beyond my brother’s concerns. Teach me to fully discern before giving my own personal response. Teach to me to listen more with empathy and with a discerning heart, mind and speech. 
3.  I totally agree on this. Most men usually only share their concerns when they already overcome the obstacle. I think this is man’s natural behavior as we dont want to have an image of a weak man. The tendency to show that we can always conquer these challenges. What we miss out with this kind of attitude is the wisdom that we can get from our leader and the wisdom from God. Possible effective way to develop our member’s attitude to be more open is thru the way we also share what we experience and how it helped us conquer this concern thru the wisdom of our leaders. In this way, they will realize that opening up more, is a good way to unload some of the burden and be blessed by our leader’s guidance. 

This is good and insightful, Dom.  

I like your analogy of your consultative selling with empathic listening.  It seems the same, but it's really not, right?  To be honest, when we're doing our commercial selling, we just want to make the sale because that's our job.  But when we disciple, or counsel those whom we are pastoring or are under our care, we don't have a one-stop-shop solution that is take-it-or-leave-it.  If we truly loved this person, we would walk with them through their problems, and lead them ever so carefully to where the Lord wants you to bring them.  We know that God knows exactly what they're going through, and exactly what they need.  But we don't.  And so, we need to rely on the Holy Spirit to equip us with the eyes and ears to see and hear what God sees and hears, and the heart of love so that we can have the patience to immerse ourselves into their life.

May God hear and grant your prayer, Dom.

As for dealing with men and their issues, your observation is spot on with my own observation.  And I love what you suggested as a possible approach.  Actually, I've been recommending the same to most of the brothers in this study group.  So far, only two of you (among those I've reviewed so far), came up with similar approaches.

 I agree with you 100% that if we were to be the first to disclose our own problems, concerns, weaknesses, or sin even -- then we signal to the brother that (a) we trust him; (b) we declare this to be "safe space"; (c) it's ok to have problems; and (d) we appreciate his advice as well.  I've actually done this myself, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do.  In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions?   Sana ol.  🙂

God bless you, Dom!

 

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 5:06 pm

Quote from Noel Lugue on September 18, 2024, 12:10 am

1. In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself? These 3 different kinds of messages are :         The words he is uttering , The words he is holding and the words he cannot utter .  The discussion will really depend on guidance of the Holy Spirit, relationship,experiences, and the maturity of  the other party. This means that , PRAYER is important during one to ones. If I will be talking to a mature Christian who has a problem and sought my advise, the words that he will say will probably be  mostly direct  to the point. This will fall to the "words he is uttering" .For example , I have a member, who has financial difficulty. He may have a short intro , but eventually he will ask help for his electric bills.  

 Based on my years of experience in having one to one,  a person is probably holding back , when his replies  are Yes ,No or ok lang. while I listen, I can ask questions not answerable by Yes or No. Likewise ,when a person is in sin or fault, he cannot look straight in your eye and has a tendency to not to share his difficulty . This now falls under " those that he cannot utter ,the lie under the depth of his Spirit.'. The only way to get through is thru compassioning. As the article would put it, being with their 

However, in all of the above ,  it is a challenge for me to listen because, the experiences clearly make me biase or even judgemental even before he speaks. 

Praise God that the prayer to the Holy Spirit always work wonders, amidst my trying my best to listen.                                                                                                                     

2. In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well?  What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill?  Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

Don't be Subjective.

As mentioned, With years of experience , it is easy for me to be subjective.

There are times that I am eager to speak rather than to listen. To use my knowledge or advise using my canned advise.

I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is not saying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern.  Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack?  Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

I would try to talk about his language or things close to his heart like cars, business, family,etc , while constantly praying to the Spirit .

Then later , slowly move to the discussion of extracting his openness amidst 

 

Holy Spirit,

Grant me that special grace to listen. to discern what the other is trying to say from the depths of his heart . Teach me to be compassionate , to put myself to his shoes. So that I may be able to help and minister well to those who seek my help.

Amen

 

Amen on your prayer to the Holy Spirit, Noel.  Obviously your years of experience in dealing with brothers and sisters under your care have taught you important lessons.  And the article of Watchman Nee was easy to understand for you, even as you are honest in admitting that you still have much to improve on, especially in the area of being subjective, in a rush to give a solution, etc.  

And so, you're right.  We need to Holy Spirit to fill us and to gift us with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control  -- all elements needed to be a good listener.  Let's pray that God reveals to us what He sees in the heart of those He places under our care; and that we have the courage to lower our egos, our preconceived solutions, and our discomfort in dealing with difficult issues.  In short, to be able to truly listen with love.

 As for dealing with men, this is where I think we have to learn to be very good at.  Because I sincerely believe that we have many brothers around us (myself included) who seem "OK", but are really struggling with something.  Sure, maybe most of them (us) think we don't need help, and that we're OK.  But it requires courage as a leader to crack this nut.  Maybe on a one on one basis, there's a chance that there will be a little disclosure of concerns.  But when you're in your men's group -- it's all well and dandy again.  

I really think that it's up to the PL to set the mood and the tone of the group meeting, to establish it as safe space, and to build an atmosphere of honesty and candidness.  One suggestion I can share with you, Noel, whether during one on one, or in plenary with the rest of the guys, is for us pastoral leaders to be the first to disclose our own real challenges, weaknesses, and sins even.  Actually, especially sin.

By being the first to disclose this openly and honestly, we're signaling to him/them that (a) we trust him/them; (b) we consider this discussion venue to be "safe space"; and (c) it's "ok" to have problems and not know how to solve them; and (d) we appreciate his/their advice as well.  I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do, or creating things you like to do in common. 

In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions?  What do you think?  Want to give this a shot?

Hope this helps, Noel.  God bless you.

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 5:34 pm

Quote from Brien Myles Villamiel on September 20, 2024, 9:10 pm

1. It has been a number of years since I had men under my care while I was serving in CUD. I'd say am a much better listener now than I was then. Back then I was more preoccupied in building relationships with my younger brothers so I may be allowed to pastor them well. As the years went by, especially these past years undergoing studies in Counseling, the appreciation of listening has been validated & strengthened. The need to be sincere in your concern is helpful too.

2. In Pathways we have saying, Where God meets you where you are. And we know, that at times, we are the face of God to those He brings to us. To me this means that as bearers of God' image we must allow ourselves to be channels of His grace to those whom he sends us too... and as such, we should be mindful that it's not about us, but the soul of troubled brother in faith. We do this by showing empath and withholding judgement... If God no longer judges as us, then why should we.

3. the Jesuits have a saying 'cura personalis' which means [among other things] taking a personal concern to those He has sent to you. In order to do this, we must be able to tap into the relationship we have with our brother. this concept of personal care is foreign to many men... aside from teaching/ expressing concern over them, we must show them how we care... how can they be open to us, if we are not able to be open to them... we need to show them how it is done... kaya lang tayo rin ayaw ipakita ang ating kahinaan sa iba... love begets love, so how can we allow other men to be open to us if we ourselves do not now how to communicate/ express themselves to their fellow bro.

So, Brien, you've taken courses pala in Counseling?  Super!!  So, much of what Watchman Nee  describes is familiar with you, I suppose.

Plus, we have the bonus of the Holy Spirit, right?  It is He who would gift us with the wonderful fruits of love, joy, peace, patience ... etc. -- all essential for proper, authentic, empathic, and compassionate listening.  Let's keep this always in mind when we relate to those whom God places under our care ... or to those whom we have to meet wherever they are.

As for dealing with men, I pose that because it is a real challenge.  I've always said, "Men don't have problems.  They solve problems."  Of course what I mean is that men look like they don't have problems; and they're eager to solve other people's problems. 

But the truth is, we're all broken.  And we -- as disciplers and pastors of God's manly flock -- have to find ways to create the proper environment for pastoring.  Sure building manly relations is important.  But I think you hit it spot on when you said "tayo rin ayaw ipakita ang ating kahinaan sa iba".   And this is precisely my antidote to this problem.  As I've suggested to many of the brothers in this study group:  How about if we go first, and that we be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with our own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even? 

I think that by doing that, by being modeling this openness and honesty, we're signaling to our brothers that (a) we trust them; (b) we consider this discussion (whether one or one, or men's group) to be "safe space"; and (c) it's ok to have problems and not know how to solve them; and (d) we appreciate their advice as well. 

I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do.  In fact, in your lessons on counseling, Brien, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions?  I think we should all begin to do this.  I really dread to think that many of our brothers in community only look "OK", when in fact, they're dealing with some problem, and actually some sin, that they believe they have the capacity to deal with on their own -- with the "help of God".  Well, I think that God has placed us pastoral workers in these situations precisely not to take these things for granted, and to just "be there" in case they need help.  Cuz it will never be revealed, until it's way too late.  Sana wag mangyari yon.  Right, Brien?

God bless us all, Brother.

 

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 7:37 pm

Quote from Johnny Yu on September 22, 2024, 11:03 am

When listening to brother during 1-1, very often we can only hear what he wants to say.  What he keeps inside is the more difficult thing to know or uncover, especially if the brother is really going through a deep hardship or challenges.  It will require a deep personal relationship with the brother over time (years), for him to really open up.  Without this, i can only share my empathy and really just listen, with probably just a few words of comfort.  The tendency of offering "solution" cannot be avoided, out of love and wanting to help the brother.  

One thing I've learned over the years is not to interrupt and just let him speak and listen attentively.   Even if I know his background and concern, i always come to a position that there is something i dont know about him which i want to understand.  And sometimes to my surprise, i really dont understand him.  I wonder if i failed to listen carefully or there are just things that are withheld.  In my opinion, it really takes a deep personal relationship and pastoral courage to probe and bring out what is difficult to utter.

Also, i think it is important also to really have a good place to talk to avoid distraction and mind not wandering over the surroundings.  Oftentimes, we meet in coffeeshop or restaurants and there lies the danger.

Lord, by your great love for the weak and poor in spirit, bless us your servants to share the same spirit and "empathize with the weaknesses", so that we may have the confidence and find grace to listen and serve our brothers.

Men, generally are not good in words, and therefore tend to talk less.  Men, also dont want to be vulnerable with their emotions and therefore not easy to crack.  Maybe that's the reason why men go out and drink with their peers when they have issues.  It may help to loosen the nerve but ultimately, it is by the grace of the Lord that will prompt him to open up.  We, as worker, should be able to discern with clarity of mind, without personal bias.

Johnny, I can see that you are fully aware of the challenges of listening, and that you appreciate the lessons being highlighted by Watchman Nee.  I just have a few comments and suggestions.

First of all, you're correct in making sure we are attentive and do not interrupt whatever it is that the person whom we are pastoring or counseling wants to say -- assuming, of course, that that person is ready to open up.  And of course, the proper environment of having a one-on-one is critical: somewhere where it is private, where there are no distractions, etc. 

Finally, I like what you said that "pastoral courage" is needed.  That is to true and is essential.  Especially when we have to ask the tough questions, that are oftentimes either sensitive matters.  Especially when we want to deal with the matter of sin -- which in my own personal opinion and experience is something that many, many pastoral leaders avoid talking about, or wish their members didn't have problems in this area and, if ever, are able to deal with it adequately in their prayer time, in their conscience, or whatever.  I hope to speak more on this in some other forum; but this, Johnny, is critical to note.  

You also recognize that the challenge is how to get that person to be honest, authentic, and open.  And you're right ... we need to build a relationship of trust, which takes time.  Fortunately, because of our pastoral system, people who fall under our pastoral cover are already able to assume that we can be trusted, and that our role is precisely to provide all sorts of pastoral support.  But, despite that, we still need to make sure that it is clear that we really really truly care for them.   In fact, much of our pastoral leading with our members should aim to demonstrate that kind of love and pastoral support in all our actions and endeavors with them.   And that is why, we ought to continue to pray for the Holy Spirit to give us the gifts of the fruit of the Spirit, of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ...etc. -- all of these being essential virtues that will enable us to listen and to respond with our hearts.

As for the special issue of dealing with men, I bring this up because -- as you recognize -- we, men, present ourselves as problem-solvers-who-should-be-able-to-solve-their-own-problems.   But you and I know, from our own personal experience with our problems, our weaknesses, and our struggles with sin even -- that we really don't have all the solutions, and we need help.  Right?

I do have one practical suggestion that I have been sharing with the rest of this study group, and which several other brothers themselves also suggested:

Even if you are the pastoral leader, how about if YOU go first, and that you be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even?  You can do this either one on one, or with the men in your small group.  I believe that by doing that, by being the first one to expose yourself to him, or to them, you're signaling to him/them that (a) you trust him/them; (b) you consider this venue to be "safe space"; (c) it's ok to have problems that you really need help in solving because you don't really have a solution; and (d) you appreciate their advice as well. 

I've actually done this, Johnny, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken, this is exactly the same technique they use in group therapy sessions; and it's proven and effective.  What do you think?  Want to give this a shot?   

I hope this helps, Johnny.  May God hear and answer our prayers for His Holy Spirit to fill us with the love we need, and the courage we need, and the ears and eyes to hear and see what Jesus Himself sees that our brothers (and sisters) are going through.  God bless you, Johnny.

 

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 8:00 pm

Quote from Gary Mercado on September 22, 2024, 9:06 pm

1. I would rate myself a 5/10. With a monkey mind like mine, I often loose track of the discussion if it goes beyond a certain time. In addition, I’m trained to fix problems and that hinders my listening and I jump to trying to solve. However I do try to exercise mental discipline, keeping focus on what is being said, and take check on my prejudices and want to solve the concern.

2. Putting aside our innate male mindset of being a problem fixer will allow us to be able to listen better. All suggested strategies are helpful.

May the Holy Spirit calm our minds to listen, open our hearts to hear innermost thoughts, guide our tongues to speak His guiding word and our thoughts to be in line with His plans.

3. I agree that to a certain extent, it is more difficult for men to open up and discuss their personal concerns especially when it deals with feelings. I suppose this is because of the expectation that men are supposed to be tough and resilient. It is equally difficult for both male pastor and pastored to open up. Opening up may be interpreted as  bringing out your “weaknesses” or personal challenges and is counter to the upbringing and the stereotype that the world sees a man. A good personal relationship between men in terms of previous shared experiences helps.  It may be easier if the worker is able to open up himself as well in a vulnerable way and share his personal experiences  to make the person being listened to be more comfortable. Being judged is often a fear among men, and if the listener can find ways to assure the person that he will not be judged, that would help. The tone of voice, physical cues and proper timing is also important. All these as explained will be given with our own experience of relating with the Lord.

May God guide us in our roles. 

Don't we all, Gary?  Don't we all just want to jump in and solve the first sign of a problem.  If not, if we were all patient, and thoroughly immersed in listening with attentive, caring, and compassionate ears -- then we wouldn't need this lesson.

But I hope you do appreciate that it is nevertheless a crucial lesson that we need to master.  And, based on the honest admission of the rest of the brothers in this Study Group, we're all not very good at it.  The thought bubble that comes to my mind is:  "Kawawa naman ang mga members natin."  Right?

I join you, therefore, in that prayer for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit so that we may bear the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ... etc. -- all very essential virtues in order to be able to listen with our hearts, and discover what Jesus already knows about those He places under our pastoral care.

As for dealing with men, I think you read my mind about why I brought this up.  Spot on #1:  "It is equally difficult for both male pastor and pastored to open up."  Spot on #2:  "It may be easier if the worker is able to open up himself as well in a vulnerable way and share his personal experiences  to make the person being listened to be more comfortable."

I've advised many of the brothers in this Study Group about that latter point; and am pleased that a few others, like you recommend it. 

I do believe that if we -- the pastoral workers -- are the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with our own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even, we would effectively be signaling to the person(s) we are pastoring (either one on one or as a group) that (a) we trust him/themn; (b) we consider this moment of dialogue to be "safe space"; (c) it's ok to have problems which we ourselves don't know how to solve; and (d) we appreciate their advice, their views, and their prayers as well. 

I've actually done this, Gary, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do. 

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions?     Sana ol.

May God guide and equip us in our pastoral roles indeed.  Amen.

God bless you, Gary.

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 8:13 pm

Quote from Jorel Mateo on September 23, 2024, 1:44 am

1. In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself? 

MESSAGE TYPE 1 – the Words he is saying or uttering

MESSAGE TYPE 2 – the Words he is holding back

MESSAGE TYPE 3 – the Words he cannot say that lie in the depths of his spirit

Before reading this article, I only rely on Type1 messages - the words he will say and open up with me.  I was very careful and not really looking for Type 2 messages as I don’t want to assume too much. I also don’t want to commit a mistake on what I will be saying to my dear Brother.

I would rate myself 3/10.  Readings and lessons like these help open up ideas and worlk of the spirit that can really help me in LISTENING to what my Brother is saying, wants to say, wouldn’t want to share with me to better handle and discussing with my Brother.

2. In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well?  What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill?  Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.
3. We must not be subjective
4. We must not woolgather
5. We must learn into the feelings of others

My weakness is the 2^nd rule – WE MUST NOT WOOLGATHER.

Even in readings at Mass, my mind begins to wander after listening to a certain sentence.  My mind will begin imagining instances related to that “certain sentence I just heard” and not connected to the reading, only connected to the sentence just read.  Almost always happens to me specially if I’m seated at the far end of the hall or church.  Or when I don’t see the Priest.

I am sometimes successful in not doing this by occupying a seat on the 1^st or 2^nd row.  This helps me listen well and get to see the Priest up close.

3. I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is notsaying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern.  Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack?  Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

For me, Men are tough or have difficulty in opening themselves up because doing so exposes their weakness and wouldn’t want to show that they are Weak.  As in losing the Macho or Male image.

I would like to suggest to Pray and Lift the meeting and relationship to Lord and Holy Spirit.  Doing so surrenders the situation and blesses it too. 

And also be a simple, straightforward, trusting Role Model for the Brother.

----------

Jorel, you're so honest in scoring yourself 3/10.  Perhaps, among all the brothers in this study group, you're the most honest.  Hahaha.  I'm not saying that the rest are lying about their scores; but really, the truth is, we all need help in this very important area.  No one got a perfect score, and everyone admits that they have failed in doing this well. 

Tuloy, as I shared with one of the brothers,  the thought bubble that comes to my mind is this:  "Because we, pastoral leaders, are not very good at listening, Kawawa naman ang mga members natin."  Right?  Lord, have mercy on all our members.  

On the third point, Jorel, about dealing with men:  certainly, we need to pray and lift up our discussions before the Lord.  But there are practical things we can also do.  I like what one of the brothers in this chat group said.  "How can we expect our brothers to open up, if we ourselves are not very good in opening up?"  Tama naman, right?

That is why, his recommendation -- which I totally agree with -- and which I actually recommended to the rest of the brothers in this Study Group is for us, as pastoral leaders, to be the first to admit our own weaknesses, struggles, temptations, and so on.

I do believe that if we -- the pastoral workers -- are the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with our own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even, we would effectively be signaling to the person(s) we are pastoring (either one on one or as a group) that (a) we trust him/themn; (b) we consider this moment of dialogue to be "safe space"; (c) it's ok to have problems which we ourselves don't know how to solve; and (d) we appreciate their advice, their views, and their prayers as well. 

I've actually done this, Jorel, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do. 

In fact, I think that this technique is the same technique they use very effectively in group therapy sessions.  What do you think, Jorel?  Would you like to try this? 

So, let's pray together for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit so that we, pastoral leaders, may bear the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ... etc. -- all very essential virtues in order to be able to listen with our hearts, and discover what Jesus already knows about those He places under our pastoral care.  Amen.  Amen.

God bless you, Jorel.

 

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 8:33 pm

Quote from Sherwin Lao on September 24, 2024, 5:19 am

1. Being a pastoral leader (or action group leader) is not an easy task. It requires certain disposition, character and skill to be able to accomplish the duty. Had been to several Pastoral Leader training / AGL training and this article from Watchman Nee really puts more emphasis on the process and value. Not only did it highlight the reality, it also calls out the disparity. The 3rd point (of being able to detect what their spirit is saying) made me reflect more on how I've been doing the task in the past. It made me realize that having that 1-to-1 with your member is  not just a mere conversation or dialogue, but also the importance of opening your spirit. More often, I let them speak and then later on try to exhaust more from them by asking adding questions. But rarely do I open both of our spirits, to connect more spiritually. Yes, I often times connect as a human being, but this article explained to me that it is more than human connection, but rather a spiritual link needs to be aligned. Because through that spiritual connection , you will see the full picture / story and also allow God to intervene and work wonders.
2. To be honest, I think I need to improve on all three aspects mentioned. Reading through the explanations, it made me realize that I was being described as the example of these situations. 1) Not to be subjective, 2) Not to be woolgatherers 3) Enter the feelings of others and put more empathy. These are the things I need to always remember. But if I may only to choose one, probably the third. I need to show more empathy and to express more care and concern to the person. Put myself more into the situation to better appreciate the emotion. And by adding the techniques described above, by opening up more my spirit, it could go deeper into the hearts and soul of my member that will allow me to make more connection. My prayer, "Lord , open my eyes that I may see this person clearly. Open my ears, that I may hear this person vividly. Open my heart, that I may accept this person openly. And open my spirit, that I may love this person unceasingly. Send your Holy Spirit to dwell within me that I may inspire more unselfishly, Amen."
3. I totally agree that men are harder to crack. But I also know that once you have cracked them, they will share with you whole-heartedly. You just need to find their trust to be able to connect to them. I noticed as well that men find it harder to express themselves through words. Usually men are "action-figures", they prefer doing rather than talking. So for us to appreciate them, we also need to study their actions, and how they are reacting on certain things. Go study their gestures, how they serve , how they work. All of these are equally important when we discuss personal matter with men. If they sense that you are truly interested in them (on their welfare), they will open up and trust you more. But you really need to earn that trust. Invest time with them.. Build that relationship and commit to them. Those are just the practical things that will serve as preparations to make them be accountable to you. Spend time in really know them personally and on how they are doing. 

Your response is very incisive, Sherwin.  I'm pleased to see that the lessons were impressed upon you very pointedly, and that you got the important aspects spot on.

I join you in your beautiful and sincere prayer, and pray for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit so that we may bear the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ... etc. -- all very essential virtues in order to be able to listen with our hearts, and discover what Jesus already knows about those He places under our pastoral care, and which He wants us to feel in our heart the way His Sacred Heart feels it.

As for dealing with men, I like all your practical suggestions.  They will all come in handy.  Other brothers shared the same thoughts -- although yours are much more detailed.   Good job!!

But allow me to suggest another practical tip.  This is something -- in my opinion -- that we can all do, without even the benefit of long period of trust-building and just becoming good buddies.

How about if you -- as the pastoral leader/counselor -- go first, and that YOU be the FIRST one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even?  Don't you think that by doing that you're signaling to him that (a) you trust him; (b) you consider this process of dialogue to be "safe space"; (c) it's ok to have real problems and honestly not know how to solve it well; and finally, (d) you appreciate his advice as well. 

I've actually done this, Sherwin, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do.  In fact, I do believe that this is exactly the same technique they use in group therapy sessions, for alcoholics, those with drug addictions, and all those difficult problems.   What do you think?  Want to give this a shot?

I hope this helps, and I pray that you and all the brothers in this Study Group will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to be proficient in this aspect of listening with the heart, the way Jesus listens.

God bless you, Sherwin. 

 

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 8:47 pm

Quote from Von Cassanova on September 27, 2024, 11:05 am

1. I love to talk to our brothers. I enjoy listening to their sharing and their journey of faith in our community. But sometimes the problem with me i do not know  how to ask the right question to extract more information about his struggle. If I rate myself I am still in the process of learning. 
2. I must not be a woolgather. My mind is full of different concerns and I cannot concentrate most of the time. I have also a problem with my attention span. I am easily distracted and this is the reason i cannot get the full message that brother wants to impart. Kaya ayaw ko mag one to one sa mga crowded area. 

Come Holy Spirit, guide and protect my thoughts. Be with me always especially when I minister my brothers and sisters in our community and in our parish. Amen.

       3. I agree that men are tough nut to crack. But as PL I always say to my MG that              I need to know their struggles and concerns so I can help them pray and give              practical advise. Lagi ko sinasabi na hindi ito pang sayahan lang. God                            allowed us to be brothers so we can help each other in this journey.           

 

 

 

You're not alone, Von, in admitting that we still have so much to improve on especially in this sensitive skill of listening.  Watchman Nee has pointed out very important and crucial aspects that we must all learn.  So, I encourage you to please take note of this, and may I suggest that you discuss this with your fellow leaders in your District so that you can all work on getting better at it.  All of you brothers in this Study Group admit how badly they score, and that they need to improve on this area.  I mean, for the sake of our members, we need to be very good at this.  Can you imagine how many of them are just waiting to be heard, to be counseled properly, and to be pastored in a loving and compassionate way?  Let's do this!!

As for dealing with men, I admire your pastoral courage in telling your brothers to take their discipleship formation under you seriously.  Bravo!!!  To be honest, I think our brothers need to hear it like that.  And from my own experience when I did that, medyo the brothers were a bit shaken, and realized that I was serious -- and that's when they took it seriously, and opened up.

But let me suggest another technique, Von, that hopefully will break the ice (or crack the nut).  I've shared this with the rest of the brothers in this Study Group, and I also happily noticed that some of them actually are doing this themselves.

How about if YOU go first -- even if you're the pastoral leader?  What if YOU be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even?   I mean do this, whether on one on one basis with a brother, or with the other brothers in the men's group.

I believe that by doing that you would be signaling to him/them that (a) you trust him/them; (b) you consider this venue of dialogue to be "safe space"; (c) it's ok to have tough problems that you yourself don't really know how to solve, or are having difficulty solving; and (d) you appreciate his/their advice as well. 

I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken, this is exactly the same technique they use very effectively in group therapy sessions for alcoholics, drug addicts, unfaithful husbands, etc.    What do you think?  Want to give this a shot?

I hope this helps, Von.  And I join you in praying for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit so that we may bear the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ... etc. -- all very essential virtues in order to be able to listen with our hearts, and discover what Jesus already knows about those He places under our pastoral care.  Amen.  Amen.

God bless you, Von.

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 9:00 pm

Quote from Gani Custodio on September 24, 2024, 8:11 pm

How would I rate myself?
Naku po, ang dami pang dapat matutunan.
It is always very easy to speak my mind during times of listening to someone.
I have to practice being discerning of unspoken words

It is pointed out to hasten preconceived notions, a wandering mind, and have the connections empathetically.
Prayer: In your name Lord Jesus, I pray that I can hear people not just with my ear but also with my heart. I ask for your Holy Spirit's presence in times of one-to-one sessions so I can listen patiently and attentively.

2 bots muna, hahaha. When men are comfortable enough, they usually open up. I do believe in having the relationship of being a brother to them and ensuring them that I am attuned to their needs or concerns.

 

Gani, lahat kayong mga sumagot nitong reflection guide -- inamin na problema ninyo ito.  So, yes, indeed, let's pray your prayer.  In fact, let's pray for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit so that we may bear the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ... etc. -- all very essential virtues in order to be able to listen with our hearts, and discover what Jesus already knows about those He places under our pastoral care.

Actually, because we all admit that we as pastoral leaders (leading other pastoral leaders) need to improve greatly in this area, ang tumatak sa isip ko tuloy ay:  "Kawawa naman ang mga members natin, dahil malamang marami sa kanila na hindi natutulungan dahil hindi masyadong napapakinggan ang kanilang tunay na dinadaanan at dinadaing."  Right?

So, let's get better at this, shall we, Gani?  

Now, kahit na feeling buddy buddy tayo with our brothers, iba pa rin talaga kung kabisado natin kung paano sundutin ang mga tunay na dinadaanan ng mga brothers natin.  Lalo na, if I might add, in the area of temptation and sin.  Kasi, usually, when it comes to work and stuff like that madaling pag-usapan yan.  But when it comes to more sensitive matters like areas of temptation and sin -- which are crucial in our discipleship formation -- if we don't have the proper listening skills and pastoral courage to deal with this, we become "lone ranger Christians".  

I have one practical suggestion about how to do this, Gani.  See how you think this would work with you.  I've shared this with the other brothers in this Study Group, and I hope it makes sense.  Here's my suggestion:

How about if you (as pastoral head) go first, and that you be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even?  Either in one on one with the brother whom you are pastoring, or in a group discussion with the other men in your men's group. 

I really think that by doing that you would be successfully signaling to him that (a) you trust him; (b) you consider this to be "safe space"; (c) it's ok to have difficult problems that you yourself have difficulty solving; and finally that (d) you appreciate his advice as well. 

I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken, this is the same technique they use in group therapy sessions (for alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.)?  What do you think?  Want to give this a shot?

I hope this helps, Gani.  Again, let's call on the Holy Spirit to empower us with this much needed, and vital, pastoral skill.  Amen.  Amen.

God bless you, Gani.

 

Quote from Johnny Yu on December 7, 2024, 4:56 pm

Quote from Jorel Mateo on September 23, 2024, 1:44 am

1. In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself? 

MESSAGE TYPE 1 – the Words he is saying or uttering

MESSAGE TYPE 2 – the Words he is holding back

MESSAGE TYPE 3 – the Words he cannot say that lie in the depths of his spirit

Before reading this article, I only rely on Type1 messages - the words he will say and open up with me.  I was very careful and not really looking for Type 2 messages as I don’t want to assume too much. I also don’t want to commit a mistake on what I will be saying to my dear Brother.

I would rate myself 3/10.  Readings and lessons like these help open up ideas and worlk of the spirit that can really help me in LISTENING to what my Brother is saying, wants to say, wouldn’t want to share with me to better handle and discussing with my Brother.

2. In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well?  What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill?  Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.
3. We must not be subjective
4. We must not woolgather
5. We must learn into the feelings of others

My weakness is the 2^nd rule – WE MUST NOT WOOLGATHER.

Even in readings at Mass, my mind begins to wander after listening to a certain sentence.  My mind will begin imagining instances related to that “certain sentence I just heard” and not connected to the reading, only connected to the sentence just read.  Almost always happens to me specially if I’m seated at the far end of the hall or church.  Or when I don’t see the Priest.

I am sometimes successful in not doing this by occupying a seat on the 1^st or 2^nd row.  This helps me listen well and get to see the Priest up close.

3. I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is notsaying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern.  Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack?  Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

For me, Men are tough or have difficulty in opening themselves up because doing so exposes their weakness and wouldn’t want to show that they are Weak.  As in losing the Macho or Male image.

I would like to suggest to Pray and Lift the meeting and relationship to Lord and Holy Spirit.  Doing so surrenders the situation and blesses it too. 

And also be a simple, straightforward, trusting Role Model for the Brother.

----------

Hi Jorel,

It's really hard to prick open what the brother may be holding back but i think we cannot totally disregard any telltale signs also.  It will really require some pastoral courage to ask some questions or probably echo back how we understand him, and hopefully, that will lead him to open up more.  But yes, we cannot assume also and compel him to open or speak beyond what he is saying. 

Quote from Alex Filamor on December 18, 2024, 8:09 am

Quote from James Labayo on August 30, 2024, 1:16 am

I always see myself as a man of patience. I use patience whenever I talk and listen to someone. In serving community especially during Discussion Groups, Men’s Groups and One-to-Ones, I normally pray during the conversation. Half of me is listening to the person while the other half is praying/sensing/listening to the Lord. Simple prayer helps like asking the Lord: (1) what do you want me to say to this person; (2) use me at this moment; or (3) bless the intentions of this person. This is also very applicable to my children, as well, whenever we have discussions in both spiritual and practical areas of growth. One must also thank and acknowledge the Lord after the conversation for He guided our thoughts and words. I rate myself 7.5/10 since I have been doing this for more than 30 years and counting.

 

The spirit of the three techniques, I think, lies in a man’s heart to serve others. You will find yourself merciful, humble and compassionate when you put the other person first.

O Holy Spirit of God, align me to the Father and Son at all times. I pray that I may always die to myself and forego my self-interest to be able to do His will for me and serve His people.

 

I agree that real men are tough nuts to crack. I believe that manly relationships are not only found but are built over time. Men usually open up when they are with men they grow up with, men they look up to or men of the same interest. Before going into the real personal concerns, I choose to build on the relationship, spend time, initiate personal conversations and be dependable/available.  

 

Finally, I love the last part of this chapter particularly the misconception that the primary essential of Christians is to be able to speak. Instead, we all need to abide in God to have spiritual clarity; we need discernment concerning the condition of all who seek us out; we need quietness of mind to hear them state their case; and we need quietness of spirit so that we can sense their true condition beyond their own definitions of it. These statements give me the confidence to serve the Lord more as a servant leader.

 

 

 

Hi, Bro James. Thanks for sharing your insights. I agree with you that exercising the spiritual side of listening is essential in our service so that we can make good judgments and give advice to the person we are dealing with. God bless your service 🙏

Quote from Alex Filamor on December 18, 2024, 8:20 am

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 5:06 pm

Quote from Noel Lugue on September 18, 2024, 12:10 am

1. In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself? These 3 different kinds of messages are :         The words he is uttering , The words he is holding and the words he cannot utter .  The discussion will really depend on guidance of the Holy Spirit, relationship,experiences, and the maturity of  the other party. This means that , PRAYER is important during one to ones. If I will be talking to a mature Christian who has a problem and sought my advise, the words that he will say will probably be  mostly direct  to the point. This will fall to the "words he is uttering" .For example , I have a member, who has financial difficulty. He may have a short intro , but eventually he will ask help for his electric bills.  

 Based on my years of experience in having one to one,  a person is probably holding back , when his replies  are Yes ,No or ok lang. while I listen, I can ask questions not answerable by Yes or No. Likewise ,when a person is in sin or fault, he cannot look straight in your eye and has a tendency to not to share his difficulty . This now falls under " those that he cannot utter ,the lie under the depth of his Spirit.'. The only way to get through is thru compassioning. As the article would put it, being with their 

However, in all of the above ,  it is a challenge for me to listen because, the experiences clearly make me biase or even judgemental even before he speaks. 

Praise God that the prayer to the Holy Spirit always work wonders, amidst my trying my best to listen.                                                                                                                     

2. In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well?  What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill?  Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

Don't be Subjective.

As mentioned, With years of experience , it is easy for me to be subjective.

There are times that I am eager to speak rather than to listen. To use my knowledge or advise using my canned advise.

I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is not saying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern.  Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack?  Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

I would try to talk about his language or things close to his heart like cars, business, family,etc , while constantly praying to the Spirit .

Then later , slowly move to the discussion of extracting his openness amidst 

 

Holy Spirit,

Grant me that special grace to listen. to discern what the other is trying to say from the depths of his heart . Teach me to be compassionate , to put myself to his shoes. So that I may be able to help and minister well to those who seek my help.

Amen

 

Amen on your prayer to the Holy Spirit, Noel.  Obviously your years of experience in dealing with brothers and sisters under your care have taught you important lessons.  And the article of Watchman Nee was easy to understand for you, even as you are honest in admitting that you still have much to improve on, especially in the area of being subjective, in a rush to give a solution, etc.  

And so, you're right.  We need to Holy Spirit to fill us and to gift us with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control  -- all elements needed to be a good listener.  Let's pray that God reveals to us what He sees in the heart of those He places under our care; and that we have the courage to lower our egos, our preconceived solutions, and our discomfort in dealing with difficult issues.  In short, to be able to truly listen with love.

 As for dealing with men, this is where I think we have to learn to be very good at.  Because I sincerely believe that we have many brothers around us (myself included) who seem "OK", but are really struggling with something.  Sure, maybe most of them (us) think we don't need help, and that we're OK.  But it requires courage as a leader to crack this nut.  Maybe on a one on one basis, there's a chance that there will be a little disclosure of concerns.  But when you're in your men's group -- it's all well and dandy again.  

I really think that it's up to the PL to set the mood and the tone of the group meeting, to establish it as safe space, and to build an atmosphere of honesty and candidness.  One suggestion I can share with you, Noel, whether during one on one, or in plenary with the rest of the guys, is for us pastoral leaders to be the first to disclose our own real challenges, weaknesses, and sins even.  Actually, especially sin.

By being the first to disclose this openly and honestly, we're signaling to him/them that (a) we trust him/them; (b) we consider this discussion venue to be "safe space"; and (c) it's "ok" to have problems and not know how to solve them; and (d) we appreciate his/their advice as well.  I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do, or creating things you like to do in common. 

In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions?  What do you think?  Want to give this a shot?

Hope this helps, Noel.  God bless you.

Hi Bro Noel, I don't have a personal encounter with you but seeing you served from Linkgod days because of my bro "lakay", it seems that as the years go by your spiritual maturity grows in a steady stable phase. I can relate to you with your experiences in dealing with men. You have this character of calmness under pressure, and it's a gift that not everyone has it. I pray that God will continue to use your ability to listen to them spiritually and encourage them to always be in tune with the Lord 🙏

Quote from Eddie on November 10, 2024, 5:06 pm

Quote from Noel Lugue on September 18, 2024, 12:10 am

1. In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself? These 3 different kinds of messages are :         The words he is uttering , The words he is holding and the words he cannot utter .  The discussion will really depend on guidance of the Holy Spirit, relationship,experiences, and the maturity of  the other party. This means that , PRAYER is important during one to ones. If I will be talking to a mature Christian who has a problem and sought my advise, the words that he will say will probably be  mostly direct  to the point. This will fall to the "words he is uttering" .For example , I have a member, who has financial difficulty. He may have a short intro , but eventually he will ask help for his electric bills.  

 Based on my years of experience in having one to one,  a person is probably holding back , when his replies  are Yes ,No or ok lang. while I listen, I can ask questions not answerable by Yes or No. Likewise ,when a person is in sin or fault, he cannot look straight in your eye and has a tendency to not to share his difficulty . This now falls under " those that he cannot utter ,the lie under the depth of his Spirit.'. The only way to get through is thru compassioning. As the article would put it, being with their 

However, in all of the above ,  it is a challenge for me to listen because, the experiences clearly make me biase or even judgemental even before he speaks. 

Praise God that the prayer to the Holy Spirit always work wonders, amidst my trying my best to listen.                                                                                                                     

2. In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well?  What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill?  Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

Don't be Subjective.

As mentioned, With years of experience , it is easy for me to be subjective.

There are times that I am eager to speak rather than to listen. To use my knowledge or advise using my canned advise.

I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is not saying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern.  Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack?  Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

I would try to talk about his language or things close to his heart like cars, business, family,etc , while constantly praying to the Spirit .

Then later , slowly move to the discussion of extracting his openness amidst 

 

Holy Spirit,

Grant me that special grace to listen. to discern what the other is trying to say from the depths of his heart . Teach me to be compassionate , to put myself to his shoes. So that I may be able to help and minister well to those who seek my help.

Amen

 

Amen on your prayer to the Holy Spirit, Noel.  Obviously your years of experience in dealing with brothers and sisters under your care have taught you important lessons.  And the article of Watchman Nee was easy to understand for you, even as you are honest in admitting that you still have much to improve on, especially in the area of being subjective, in a rush to give a solution, etc.  

And so, you're right.  We need to Holy Spirit to fill us and to gift us with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control  -- all elements needed to be a good listener.  Let's pray that God reveals to us what He sees in the heart of those He places under our care; and that we have the courage to lower our egos, our preconceived solutions, and our discomfort in dealing with difficult issues.  In short, to be able to truly listen with love.

 As for dealing with men, this is where I think we have to learn to be very good at.  Because I sincerely believe that we have many brothers around us (myself included) who seem "OK", but are really struggling with something.  Sure, maybe most of them (us) think we don't need help, and that we're OK.  But it requires courage as a leader to crack this nut.  Maybe on a one on one basis, there's a chance that there will be a little disclosure of concerns.  But when you're in your men's group -- it's all well and dandy again.  

I really think that it's up to the PL to set the mood and the tone of the group meeting, to establish it as safe space, and to build an atmosphere of honesty and candidness.  One suggestion I can share with you, Noel, whether during one on one, or in plenary with the rest of the guys, is for us pastoral leaders to be the first to disclose our own real challenges, weaknesses, and sins even.  Actually, especially sin.

By being the first to disclose this openly and honestly, we're signaling to him/them that (a) we trust him/them; (b) we consider this discussion venue to be "safe space"; and (c) it's "ok" to have problems and not know how to solve them; and (d) we appreciate his/their advice as well.  I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do, or creating things you like to do in common. 

In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions?  What do you think?  Want to give this a shot?

Hope this helps, Noel.  God bless you.