Discussion Board for Fireside Chat Members, Central Sector of Ang Ligaya ng PanginoonFireside Chat Discussion on The Normal Christian Worker: Topic # 4: "A GOOD LISTENER"Reflection Guide for CHAPTER 4

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Reflection Guide for CHAPTER 4

#21 · September 20, 2024, 9:10 pm

1. It has been a number of years since I had men under my care while I was serving in CUD. I'd say am a much better listener now than I was then. Back then I was more preoccupied in building relationships with my younger brothers so I may be allowed to pastor them well. As the years went by, especially these past years undergoing studies in Counseling, the appreciation of listening has been validated & strengthened. The need to be sincere in your concern is helpful too.

2. In Pathways we have saying, Where God meets you where you are. And we know, that at times, we are the face of God to those He brings to us. To me this means that as bearers of God' image we must allow ourselves to be channels of His grace to those whom he sends us too... and as such, we should be mindful that it's not about us, but the soul of troubled brother in faith. We do this by showing empath and withholding judgement... If God no longer judges as us, then why should we.

3. the Jesuits have a saying 'cura personalis' which means [among other things] taking a personal concern to those He has sent to you. In order to do this, we must be able to tap into the relationship we have with our brother. this concept of personal care is foreign to many men... aside from teaching/ expressing concern over them, we must show them how we care... how can they be open to us, if we are not able to be open to them... we need to show them how it is done... kaya lang tayo rin ayaw ipakita ang ating kahinaan sa iba... love begets love, so how can we allow other men to be open to us if we ourselves do not now how to communicate/ express themselves to their fellow bro.

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#22 · September 22, 2024, 11:03 am

Quote from Johnny Yu on September 22, 2024, 11:03 am
When listening to brother during 1-1, very often we can only hear what he wants to say. What he keeps inside is the more difficult thing to know or uncover, especially if the brother is really going through a deep hardship or challenges. It will require a deep personal relationship with the brother over time (years), for him to really open up. Without this, i can only share my empathy and really just listen, with probably just a few words of comfort. The tendency of offering "solution" cannot be avoided, out of love and wanting to help the brother.

One thing I've learned over the years is not to interrupt and just let him speak and listen attentively. Even if I know his background and concern, i always come to a position that there is something i dont know about him which i want to understand. And sometimes to my surprise, i really dont understand him. I wonder if i failed to listen carefully or there are just things that are withheld. In my opinion, it really takes a deep personal relationship and pastoral courage to probe and bring out what is difficult to utter.

Also, i think it is important also to really have a good place to talk to avoid distraction and mind not wandering over the surroundings. Oftentimes, we meet in coffeeshop or restaurants and there lies the danger.

Lord, by your great love for the weak and poor in spirit, bless us your servants to share the same spirit and "empathize with the weaknesses", so that we may have the confidence and find grace to listen and serve our brothers.

Men, generally are not good in words, and therefore tend to talk less. Men, also dont want to be vulnerable with their emotions and therefore not easy to crack. Maybe that's the reason why men go out and drink with their peers when they have issues. It may help to loosen the nerve but ultimately, it is by the grace of the Lord that will prompt him to open up. We, as worker, should be able to discern with clarity of mind, without personal bias.

When listening to brother during 1-1, very often we can only hear what he wants to say. What he keeps inside is the more difficult thing to know or uncover, especially if the brother is really going through a deep hardship or challenges. It will require a deep personal relationship with the brother over time (years), for him to really open up. Without this, i can only share my empathy and really just listen, with probably just a few words of comfort. The tendency of offering "solution" cannot be avoided, out of love and wanting to help the brother.

One thing I've learned over the years is not to interrupt and just let him speak and listen attentively. Even if I know his background and concern, i always come to a position that there is something i dont know about him which i want to understand. And sometimes to my surprise, i really dont understand him. I wonder if i failed to listen carefully or there are just things that are withheld. In my opinion, it really takes a deep personal relationship and pastoral courage to probe and bring out what is difficult to utter.

Also, i think it is important also to really have a good place to talk to avoid distraction and mind not wandering over the surroundings. Oftentimes, we meet in coffeeshop or restaurants and there lies the danger.

Lord, by your great love for the weak and poor in spirit, bless us your servants to share the same spirit and "empathize with the weaknesses", so that we may have the confidence and find grace to listen and serve our brothers.

Men, generally are not good in words, and therefore tend to talk less. Men, also dont want to be vulnerable with their emotions and therefore not easy to crack. Maybe that's the reason why men go out and drink with their peers when they have issues. It may help to loosen the nerve but ultimately, it is by the grace of the Lord that will prompt him to open up. We, as worker, should be able to discern with clarity of mind, without personal bias.

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#23 · September 22, 2024, 9:06 pm

1. I would rate myself a 5/10. With a monkey mind like mine, I often loose track of the discussion if it goes beyond a certain time. In addition, I’m trained to fix problems and that hinders my listening and I jump to trying to solve. However I do try to exercise mental discipline, keeping focus on what is being said, and take check on my prejudices and want to solve the concern.

2. Putting aside our innate male mindset of being a problem fixer will allow us to be able to listen better. All suggested strategies are helpful.

May the Holy Spirit calm our minds to listen, open our hearts to hear innermost thoughts, guide our tongues to speak His guiding word and our thoughts to be in line with His plans.

3. I agree that to a certain extent, it is more difficult for men to open up and discuss their personal concerns especially when it deals with feelings. I suppose this is because of the expectation that men are supposed to be tough and resilient. It is equally difficult for both male pastor and pastored to open up. Opening up may be interpreted as bringing out your “weaknesses” or personal challenges and is counter to the upbringing and the stereotype that the world sees a man. A good personal relationship between men in terms of previous shared experiences helps. It may be easier if the worker is able to open up himself as well in a vulnerable way and share his personal experiences to make the person being listened to be more comfortable. Being judged is often a fear among men, and if the listener can find ways to assure the person that he will not be judged, that would help. The tone of voice, physical cues and proper timing is also important. All these as explained will be given with our own experience of relating with the Lord.

May God guide us in our roles.

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#24 · September 23, 2024, 1:44 am

Quote from Jorel Mateo on September 23, 2024, 1:44 am

In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself?

MESSAGE TYPE 1 – the Words he is saying or uttering

MESSAGE TYPE 2 – the Words he is holding back

MESSAGE TYPE 3 – the Words he cannot say that lie in the depths of his spirit

Before reading this article, I only rely on Type1 messages - the words he will say and open up with me. I was very careful and not really looking for Type 2 messages as I don’t want to assume too much. I also don’t want to commit a mistake on what I will be saying to my dear Brother.

I would rate myself 3/10. Readings and lessons like these help open up ideas and worlk of the spirit that can really help me in LISTENING to what my Brother is saying, wants to say, wouldn’t want to share with me to better handle and discussing with my Brother.

In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well? What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill? Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

We must not be subjective

We must not woolgather

We must learn into the feelings of others

My weakness is the 2^nd rule – WE MUST NOT WOOLGATHER.

Even in readings at Mass, my mind begins to wander after listening to a certain sentence. My mind will begin imagining instances related to that “certain sentence I just heard” and not connected to the reading, only connected to the sentence just read. Almost always happens to me specially if I’m seated at the far end of the hall or church. Or when I don’t see the Priest.

I am sometimes successful in not doing this by occupying a seat on the 1^st or 2^nd row. This helps me listen well and get to see the Priest up close.

I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is notsaying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern. Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack? Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

For me, Men are tough or have difficulty in opening themselves up because doing so exposes their weakness and wouldn’t want to show that they are Weak. As in losing the Macho or Male image.

I would like to suggest to Pray and Lift the meeting and relationship to Lord and Holy Spirit. Doing so surrenders the situation and blesses it too.

And also be a simple, straightforward, trusting Role Model for the Brother.

----------

In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself?

MESSAGE TYPE 1 – the Words he is saying or uttering

MESSAGE TYPE 2 – the Words he is holding back

MESSAGE TYPE 3 – the Words he cannot say that lie in the depths of his spirit

Before reading this article, I only rely on Type1 messages - the words he will say and open up with me. I was very careful and not really looking for Type 2 messages as I don’t want to assume too much. I also don’t want to commit a mistake on what I will be saying to my dear Brother.

I would rate myself 3/10. Readings and lessons like these help open up ideas and worlk of the spirit that can really help me in LISTENING to what my Brother is saying, wants to say, wouldn’t want to share with me to better handle and discussing with my Brother.

In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well? What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill? Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.
We must not be subjective
We must not woolgather
We must learn into the feelings of others

My weakness is the 2^nd rule – WE MUST NOT WOOLGATHER.

Even in readings at Mass, my mind begins to wander after listening to a certain sentence. My mind will begin imagining instances related to that “certain sentence I just heard” and not connected to the reading, only connected to the sentence just read. Almost always happens to me specially if I’m seated at the far end of the hall or church. Or when I don’t see the Priest.

I am sometimes successful in not doing this by occupying a seat on the 1^st or 2^nd row. This helps me listen well and get to see the Priest up close.

I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is notsaying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern. Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack? Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

For me, Men are tough or have difficulty in opening themselves up because doing so exposes their weakness and wouldn’t want to show that they are Weak. As in losing the Macho or Male image.

I would like to suggest to Pray and Lift the meeting and relationship to Lord and Holy Spirit. Doing so surrenders the situation and blesses it too.

And also be a simple, straightforward, trusting Role Model for the Brother.

----------

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#25 · September 24, 2024, 5:19 am

Quote from Sherwin Lao on September 24, 2024, 5:19 am

Being a pastoral leader (or action group leader) is not an easy task. It requires certain disposition, character and skill to be able to accomplish the duty. Had been to several Pastoral Leader training / AGL training and this article from Watchman Nee really puts more emphasis on the process and value. Not only did it highlight the reality, it also calls out the disparity. The 3rd point (of being able to detect what their spirit is saying) made me reflect more on how I've been doing the task in the past. It made me realize that having that 1-to-1 with your member is not just a mere conversation or dialogue, but also the importance of opening your spirit. More often, I let them speak and then later on try to exhaust more from them by asking adding questions. But rarely do I open both of our spirits, to connect more spiritually. Yes, I often times connect as a human being, but this article explained to me that it is more than human connection, but rather a spiritual link needs to be aligned. Because through that spiritual connection , you will see the full picture / story and also allow God to intervene and work wonders.

To be honest, I think I need to improve on all three aspects mentioned. Reading through the explanations, it made me realize that I was being described as the example of these situations. 1) Not to be subjective, 2) Not to be woolgatherers 3) Enter the feelings of others and put more empathy. These are the things I need to always remember. But if I may only to choose one, probably the third. I need to show more empathy and to express more care and concern to the person. Put myself more into the situation to better appreciate the emotion. And by adding the techniques described above, by opening up more my spirit, it could go deeper into the hearts and soul of my member that will allow me to make more connection. My prayer, "Lord , open my eyes that I may see this person clearly. Open my ears, that I may hear this person vividly. Open my heart, that I may accept this person openly. And open my spirit, that I may love this person unceasingly. Send your Holy Spirit to dwell within me that I may inspire more unselfishly, Amen."

I totally agree that men are harder to crack. But I also know that once you have cracked them, they will share with you whole-heartedly. You just need to find their trust to be able to connect to them. I noticed as well that men find it harder to express themselves through words. Usually men are "action-figures", they prefer doing rather than talking. So for us to appreciate them, we also need to study their actions, and how they are reacting on certain things. Go study their gestures, how they serve , how they work. All of these are equally important when we discuss personal matter with men. If they sense that you are truly interested in them (on their welfare), they will open up and trust you more. But you really need to earn that trust. Invest time with them.. Build that relationship and commit to them. Those are just the practical things that will serve as preparations to make them be accountable to you. Spend time in really know them personally and on how they are doing.

Being a pastoral leader (or action group leader) is not an easy task. It requires certain disposition, character and skill to be able to accomplish the duty. Had been to several Pastoral Leader training / AGL training and this article from Watchman Nee really puts more emphasis on the process and value. Not only did it highlight the reality, it also calls out the disparity. The 3rd point (of being able to detect what their spirit is saying) made me reflect more on how I've been doing the task in the past. It made me realize that having that 1-to-1 with your member is not just a mere conversation or dialogue, but also the importance of opening your spirit. More often, I let them speak and then later on try to exhaust more from them by asking adding questions. But rarely do I open both of our spirits, to connect more spiritually. Yes, I often times connect as a human being, but this article explained to me that it is more than human connection, but rather a spiritual link needs to be aligned. Because through that spiritual connection , you will see the full picture / story and also allow God to intervene and work wonders.
To be honest, I think I need to improve on all three aspects mentioned. Reading through the explanations, it made me realize that I was being described as the example of these situations. 1) Not to be subjective, 2) Not to be woolgatherers 3) Enter the feelings of others and put more empathy. These are the things I need to always remember. But if I may only to choose one, probably the third. I need to show more empathy and to express more care and concern to the person. Put myself more into the situation to better appreciate the emotion. And by adding the techniques described above, by opening up more my spirit, it could go deeper into the hearts and soul of my member that will allow me to make more connection. My prayer, "Lord , open my eyes that I may see this person clearly. Open my ears, that I may hear this person vividly. Open my heart, that I may accept this person openly. And open my spirit, that I may love this person unceasingly. Send your Holy Spirit to dwell within me that I may inspire more unselfishly, Amen."
I totally agree that men are harder to crack. But I also know that once you have cracked them, they will share with you whole-heartedly. You just need to find their trust to be able to connect to them. I noticed as well that men find it harder to express themselves through words. Usually men are "action-figures", they prefer doing rather than talking. So for us to appreciate them, we also need to study their actions, and how they are reacting on certain things. Go study their gestures, how they serve , how they work. All of these are equally important when we discuss personal matter with men. If they sense that you are truly interested in them (on their welfare), they will open up and trust you more. But you really need to earn that trust. Invest time with them.. Build that relationship and commit to them. Those are just the practical things that will serve as preparations to make them be accountable to you. Spend time in really know them personally and on how they are doing.

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#26 · September 24, 2024, 5:44 am

Quote from Sherwin Lao on September 24, 2024, 5:44 am

Quote from Brien Myles Villamiel on September 20, 2024, 9:10 pm

1. It has been a number of years since I had men under my care while I was serving in CUD. I'd say am a much better listener now than I was then. Back then I was more preoccupied in building relationships with my younger brothers so I may be allowed to pastor them well. As the years went by, especially these past years undergoing studies in Counseling, the appreciation of listening has been validated & strengthened. The need to be sincere in your concern is helpful too.

2. In Pathways we have saying, Where God meets you where you are. And we know, that at times, we are the face of God to those He brings to us. To me this means that as bearers of God' image we must allow ourselves to be channels of His grace to those whom he sends us too... and as such, we should be mindful that it's not about us, but the soul of troubled brother in faith. We do this by showing empath and withholding judgement... If God no longer judges as us, then why should we.

3. the Jesuits have a saying 'cura personalis' which means [among other things] taking a personal concern to those He has sent to you. In order to do this, we must be able to tap into the relationship we have with our brother. this concept of personal care is foreign to many men... aside from teaching/ expressing concern over them, we must show them how we care... how can they be open to us, if we are not able to be open to them... we need to show them how it is done... kaya lang tayo rin ayaw ipakita ang ating kahinaan sa iba... love begets love, so how can we allow other men to be open to us if we ourselves do not now how to communicate/ express themselves to their fellow bro.

I like what you pointed out bro na we need to open ourselves up also to the person so we can allow them to also open up with us (love begets love). It is not always a one-way street , but instead a two-way dialogue for them to appreciate more our sincerity to be of aid to them. God bless in your ministry, Bri!

Quote from Brien Myles Villamiel on September 20, 2024, 9:10 pm

1. It has been a number of years since I had men under my care while I was serving in CUD. I'd say am a much better listener now than I was then. Back then I was more preoccupied in building relationships with my younger brothers so I may be allowed to pastor them well. As the years went by, especially these past years undergoing studies in Counseling, the appreciation of listening has been validated & strengthened. The need to be sincere in your concern is helpful too.

2. In Pathways we have saying, Where God meets you where you are. And we know, that at times, we are the face of God to those He brings to us. To me this means that as bearers of God' image we must allow ourselves to be channels of His grace to those whom he sends us too... and as such, we should be mindful that it's not about us, but the soul of troubled brother in faith. We do this by showing empath and withholding judgement... If God no longer judges as us, then why should we.

3. the Jesuits have a saying 'cura personalis' which means [among other things] taking a personal concern to those He has sent to you. In order to do this, we must be able to tap into the relationship we have with our brother. this concept of personal care is foreign to many men... aside from teaching/ expressing concern over them, we must show them how we care... how can they be open to us, if we are not able to be open to them... we need to show them how it is done... kaya lang tayo rin ayaw ipakita ang ating kahinaan sa iba... love begets love, so how can we allow other men to be open to us if we ourselves do not now how to communicate/ express themselves to their fellow bro.

I like what you pointed out bro na we need to open ourselves up also to the person so we can allow them to also open up with us (love begets love). It is not always a one-way street , but instead a two-way dialogue for them to appreciate more our sincerity to be of aid to them. God bless in your ministry, Bri!

#27 · September 24, 2024, 5:51 am

Quote from Sherwin Lao on September 24, 2024, 5:51 am

Quote from Joseph Henson on September 9, 2024, 9:46 pm

I am very much a work in progress regarding discerning the 3 different kinds of messages:

the words he is uttering – when I was new in leading small groups, I tended to remember the specific details that a brother has shared to me. Now, I realize a bad habit of not remembering enough since I wanted to focus on what I think are the important aspects (in the name of convenience), when there might be more critical matters in the other details being shared.

the words he is holding back – having some background in audit, I do have a tendency to dig further than what was said and even challenge the statements. However, I have a tendency to test out my hypothesis, usually based on logic alone, which is naturally biased based on experience and convenience (again). I may be simplifying or leading the discussion towards an area or conclusion that I am comfortable with, in order to dispense tried and tested solutions, as Watchman Nee has explained.

the words that he cannot utter that lie in the depths of his spirit – We do say a prayer and invite the Spirit before having a 1-to-1 but I need to listen to the Spirit more while we are having the conversation.

I think I need to improve most in not being subjective. I have a tendency to put decisions into context based on historical data or an established theory. It is difficult for me to listen with a blank slate, that actually relies more on the work of the Spirit than on pure reasoning.

Come, Holy Spirit. We praise and thank You for all You are doing in our lives. Work in me and in those that I encounter that we may yield to Your leading and be filled with Your grace. Free us from any bondage of the world and of the flesh, and protect us from any attacks of the evil one. May I be able to listen well to my brother and to You. May our conversation bear forth fruit that You desire. May all that we say and do be for Your greater glory. Amen.

3. Yes, I agree that a man has a tendency to keep to himself and try to solve the problem on his own (or with the Lord alone) and would not want to bother others regarding his personal concerns. I think that men would open up more given time and seeing consistency that those who open up are not condemned but helped in a brotherly way (i.e encouraging, life-giving). To some extent, the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of. Also, I have opened to the brothers that I need their help for me to serve them as their pastoral leader, and it may also trigger men’s tendency to want to be of help. Lastly, I have experienced the most powerful 1-to-1s during or after retreats, so joining these may allow them to be moved by the Spirit in these “God moments”.

Thanks Joseph for sharing examples where you felt vulnerable. Sometimes, our human tendencies and capabilities hinder us from being the true servant we really ought to be. We tend to base our actions from past "successful" experiences and handling, but in reality, each encounter is a new encounter, and we need to treat it differently and uniquely by opening our spirits to that person at the specific point of time. By doing this, I think we would most likely be avoiding the three Don'ts mentioned by Watchman Nee.

Quote from Joseph Henson on September 9, 2024, 9:46 pm

I am very much a work in progress regarding discerning the 3 different kinds of messages:

the words he is uttering – when I was new in leading small groups, I tended to remember the specific details that a brother has shared to me. Now, I realize a bad habit of not remembering enough since I wanted to focus on what I think are the important aspects (in the name of convenience), when there might be more critical matters in the other details being shared.

the words he is holding back – having some background in audit, I do have a tendency to dig further than what was said and even challenge the statements. However, I have a tendency to test out my hypothesis, usually based on logic alone, which is naturally biased based on experience and convenience (again). I may be simplifying or leading the discussion towards an area or conclusion that I am comfortable with, in order to dispense tried and tested solutions, as Watchman Nee has explained.

the words that he cannot utter that lie in the depths of his spirit – We do say a prayer and invite the Spirit before having a 1-to-1 but I need to listen to the Spirit more while we are having the conversation.

I think I need to improve most in not being subjective. I have a tendency to put decisions into context based on historical data or an established theory. It is difficult for me to listen with a blank slate, that actually relies more on the work of the Spirit than on pure reasoning.

Come, Holy Spirit. We praise and thank You for all You are doing in our lives. Work in me and in those that I encounter that we may yield to Your leading and be filled with Your grace. Free us from any bondage of the world and of the flesh, and protect us from any attacks of the evil one. May I be able to listen well to my brother and to You. May our conversation bear forth fruit that You desire. May all that we say and do be for Your greater glory. Amen.

3. Yes, I agree that a man has a tendency to keep to himself and try to solve the problem on his own (or with the Lord alone) and would not want to bother others regarding his personal concerns. I think that men would open up more given time and seeing consistency that those who open up are not condemned but helped in a brotherly way (i.e encouraging, life-giving). To some extent, the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of. Also, I have opened to the brothers that I need their help for me to serve them as their pastoral leader, and it may also trigger men’s tendency to want to be of help. Lastly, I have experienced the most powerful 1-to-1s during or after retreats, so joining these may allow them to be moved by the Spirit in these “God moments”.

Thanks Joseph for sharing examples where you felt vulnerable. Sometimes, our human tendencies and capabilities hinder us from being the true servant we really ought to be. We tend to base our actions from past "successful" experiences and handling, but in reality, each encounter is a new encounter, and we need to treat it differently and uniquely by opening our spirits to that person at the specific point of time. By doing this, I think we would most likely be avoiding the three Don'ts mentioned by Watchman Nee.

#28 · September 24, 2024, 8:11 pm

How would I rate myself?
Naku po, ang dami pang dapat matutunan.
It is always very easy to speak my mind during times of listening to someone.
I have to practice being discerning of unspoken words

It is pointed out to hasten preconceived notions, a wandering mind, and have the connections empathetically.
Prayer: In your name Lord Jesus, I pray that I can hear people not just with my ear but also with my heart. I ask for your Holy Spirit's presence in times of one-to-one sessions so I can listen patiently and attentively.

2 bots muna, hahaha. When men are comfortable enough, they usually open up. I do believe in having the relationship of being a brother to them and ensuring them that I am attuned to their needs or concerns.

#29 · September 27, 2024, 11:05 am

I love to talk to our brothers. I enjoy listening to their sharing and their journey of faith in our community. But sometimes the problem with me i do not know how to ask the right question to extract more information about his struggle. If I rate myself I am still in the process of learning.
I must not be a woolgather. My mind is full of different concerns and I cannot concentrate most of the time. I have also a problem with my attention span. I am easily distracted and this is the reason i cannot get the full message that brother wants to impart. Kaya ayaw ko mag one to one sa mga crowded area.

Come Holy Spirit, guide and protect my thoughts. Be with me always especially when I minister my brothers and sisters in our community and in our parish. Amen.

3. I agree that men are tough nut to crack. But as PL I always say to my MG that I need to know their struggles and concerns so I can help them pray and give practical advise. Lagi ko sinasabi na hindi ito pang sayahan lang. God allowed us to be brothers so we can help each other in this journey.

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#30 · October 3, 2024, 6:20 pm

Quote from Von Cassanova on September 27, 2024, 11:05 am

I love to talk to our brothers. I enjoy listening to their sharing and their journey of faith in our community. But sometimes the problem with me i do not know how to ask the right question to extract more information about his struggle. If I rate myself I am still in the process of learning.

I must not be a woolgather. My mind is full of different concerns and I cannot concentrate most of the time. I have also a problem with my attention span. I am easily distracted and this is the reason i cannot get the full message that brother wants to impart. Kaya ayaw ko mag one to one sa mga crowded area.

Come Holy Spirit, guide and protect my thoughts. Be with me always especially when I minister my brothers and sisters in our community and in our parish. Amen.

3. I agree that men are tough nut to crack. But as PL I always say to my MG that I need to know their struggles and concerns so I can help them pray and give practical advise. Lagi ko sinasabi na hindi ito pang sayahan lang. God allowed us to be brothers so we can help each other in this journey.

I am inspired by the way you speak to your members in a straightforward manner.

I will try to learn that and try to balance also the bonding first before the request to open up or wait for them to open up. The disadvantage of the latter is that there is indefinite time as to when the member will open up.

#31 · October 3, 2024, 6:27 pm

Quote from Noel Lugue on October 3, 2024, 6:27 pm

Quote from Joseph Henson on September 9, 2024, 9:46 pm

I am very much a work in progress regarding discerning the 3 different kinds of messages:

the words he is uttering – when I was new in leading small groups, I tended to remember the specific details that a brother has shared to me. Now, I realize a bad habit of not remembering enough since I wanted to focus on what I think are the important aspects (in the name of convenience), when there might be more critical matters in the other details being shared.

the words he is holding back – having some background in audit, I do have a tendency to dig further than what was said and even challenge the statements. However, I have a tendency to test out my hypothesis, usually based on logic alone, which is naturally biased based on experience and convenience (again). I may be simplifying or leading the discussion towards an area or conclusion that I am comfortable with, in order to dispense tried and tested solutions, as Watchman Nee has explained.

the words that he cannot utter that lie in the depths of his spirit – We do say a prayer and invite the Spirit before having a 1-to-1 but I need to listen to the Spirit more while we are having the conversation.

I think I need to improve most in not being subjective. I have a tendency to put decisions into context based on historical data or an established theory. It is difficult for me to listen with a blank slate, that actually relies more on the work of the Spirit than on pure reasoning.

Come, Holy Spirit. We praise and thank You for all You are doing in our lives. Work in me and in those that I encounter that we may yield to Your leading and be filled with Your grace. Free us from any bondage of the world and of the flesh, and protect us from any attacks of the evil one. May I be able to listen well to my brother and to You. May our conversation bear forth fruit that You desire. May all that we say and do be for Your greater glory. Amen.

3. Yes, I agree that a man has a tendency to keep to himself and try to solve the problem on his own (or with the Lord alone) and would not want to bother others regarding his personal concerns. I think that men would open up more given time and seeing consistency that those who open up are not condemned but helped in a brotherly way (i.e encouraging, life-giving). To some extent, the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of. Also, I have opened to the brothers that I need their help for me to serve them as their pastoral leader, and it may also trigger men’s tendency to want to be of help. Lastly, I have experienced the most powerful 1-to-1s during or after retreats, so joining these may allow them to be moved by the Spirit in these “God moments”.

I like this line from your reaction: " To some extent, the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of."

I have experience the effectiveness of this method. When I opened up to my members that I also struggle with LUST or Sexual Sin, it is almost automatic that they will open up in relation to these struggles.

Quote from Joseph Henson on September 9, 2024, 9:46 pm

I am very much a work in progress regarding discerning the 3 different kinds of messages:

the words he is uttering – when I was new in leading small groups, I tended to remember the specific details that a brother has shared to me. Now, I realize a bad habit of not remembering enough since I wanted to focus on what I think are the important aspects (in the name of convenience), when there might be more critical matters in the other details being shared.

the words he is holding back – having some background in audit, I do have a tendency to dig further than what was said and even challenge the statements. However, I have a tendency to test out my hypothesis, usually based on logic alone, which is naturally biased based on experience and convenience (again). I may be simplifying or leading the discussion towards an area or conclusion that I am comfortable with, in order to dispense tried and tested solutions, as Watchman Nee has explained.

the words that he cannot utter that lie in the depths of his spirit – We do say a prayer and invite the Spirit before having a 1-to-1 but I need to listen to the Spirit more while we are having the conversation.

I think I need to improve most in not being subjective. I have a tendency to put decisions into context based on historical data or an established theory. It is difficult for me to listen with a blank slate, that actually relies more on the work of the Spirit than on pure reasoning.

Come, Holy Spirit. We praise and thank You for all You are doing in our lives. Work in me and in those that I encounter that we may yield to Your leading and be filled with Your grace. Free us from any bondage of the world and of the flesh, and protect us from any attacks of the evil one. May I be able to listen well to my brother and to You. May our conversation bear forth fruit that You desire. May all that we say and do be for Your greater glory. Amen.

3. Yes, I agree that a man has a tendency to keep to himself and try to solve the problem on his own (or with the Lord alone) and would not want to bother others regarding his personal concerns. I think that men would open up more given time and seeing consistency that those who open up are not condemned but helped in a brotherly way (i.e encouraging, life-giving). To some extent, the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of. Also, I have opened to the brothers that I need their help for me to serve them as their pastoral leader, and it may also trigger men’s tendency to want to be of help. Lastly, I have experienced the most powerful 1-to-1s during or after retreats, so joining these may allow them to be moved by the Spirit in these “God moments”.

I like this line from your reaction: " To some extent, the leader may also share his challenges to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of."

I have experience the effectiveness of this method. When I opened up to my members that I also struggle with LUST or Sexual Sin, it is almost automatic that they will open up in relation to these struggles.

#32 · October 3, 2024, 6:33 pm

Quote from Noel Lugue on October 3, 2024, 6:33 pm

Quote from Gary Cabalde on August 2, 2024, 3:55 pm

I classify my listening skills as "hybrid" as I encounter these 3 habits of listening style from time to time but admittedly, i am more inclined to only listen to what is mentioned to me. It takes so much patience and great love for your brother to always listen to him with you heart and get to the point that you immerse yourself into himself that you fully understand the things he said, refrained from saying and what his spirit is also conveying.

It improves my listening skill every time i put myself in his shoes and look at his concerns from his angle. But sad to say, i am not consistent in applying this kind of habit at all times. What I’ve been doing lately is to also be mindful of the workings of the Holy Spirit while I am ministering to someone, asking the Lord what does He want me to say to this person while looking at the person eye-to-eye so as not to lose him/her; again very inconsistent in this matter

Father, I praise and honor you and I pray that I may do this more through others by listening to them lovingly and hear your people using my heart. May I be able to convey the right message that is pleasing to you Lord. I ask this in Jesus Name. Amen.

I agree that men are a tough nut to crack. We are warriors and we don’t normally speak out what’s in our heart otherwise we may be seen as weak. One effective way that I’ve done in the past is to be with him in his interest/hobbies in life as much as I can and use that as an opportunity to discuss life, in all its seriousness and fun moments. In this way, we are able to build connections.

Just to react to your phrase ;" to be with him in his interest/hobbies in life".

This is a great way of reaching to our member. Similar to learning their language of love. Always discerning as to where our brother is at a particular time. Sad to say that I sometimes overlook this non threatening approach. May the Holy Spirit empower and guide us always as we continue to listen to our brother/member.

Quote from Gary Cabalde on August 2, 2024, 3:55 pm

I classify my listening skills as "hybrid" as I encounter these 3 habits of listening style from time to time but admittedly, i am more inclined to only listen to what is mentioned to me. It takes so much patience and great love for your brother to always listen to him with you heart and get to the point that you immerse yourself into himself that you fully understand the things he said, refrained from saying and what his spirit is also conveying.

It improves my listening skill every time i put myself in his shoes and look at his concerns from his angle. But sad to say, i am not consistent in applying this kind of habit at all times. What I’ve been doing lately is to also be mindful of the workings of the Holy Spirit while I am ministering to someone, asking the Lord what does He want me to say to this person while looking at the person eye-to-eye so as not to lose him/her; again very inconsistent in this matter

Father, I praise and honor you and I pray that I may do this more through others by listening to them lovingly and hear your people using my heart. May I be able to convey the right message that is pleasing to you Lord. I ask this in Jesus Name. Amen.

I agree that men are a tough nut to crack. We are warriors and we don’t normally speak out what’s in our heart otherwise we may be seen as weak. One effective way that I’ve done in the past is to be with him in his interest/hobbies in life as much as I can and use that as an opportunity to discuss life, in all its seriousness and fun moments. In this way, we are able to build connections.

Just to react to your phrase ;" to be with him in his interest/hobbies in life".

This is a great way of reaching to our member. Similar to learning their language of love. Always discerning as to where our brother is at a particular time. Sad to say that I sometimes overlook this non threatening approach. May the Holy Spirit empower and guide us always as we continue to listen to our brother/member.

Eddie has reacted to this post.

#33 · November 1, 2024, 12:21 am

Quote from Eddie on November 1, 2024, 12:21 am

Quote from Gary Cabalde on August 2, 2024, 3:55 pm

I classify my listening skills as "hybrid" as I encounter these 3 habits of listening style from time to time but admittedly, i am more inclined to only listen to what is mentioned to me. It takes so much patience and great love for your brother to always listen to him with you heart and get to the point that you immerse yourself into himself that you fully understand the things he said, refrained from saying and what his spirit is also conveying.

It improves my listening skill every time i put myself in his shoes and look at his concerns from his angle. But sad to say, i am not consistent in applying this kind of habit at all times. What I’ve been doing lately is to also be mindful of the workings of the Holy Spirit while I am ministering to someone, asking the Lord what does He want me to say to this person while looking at the person eye-to-eye so as not to lose him/her; again very inconsistent in this matter

Father, I praise and honor you and I pray that I may do this more through others by listening to them lovingly and hear your people using my heart. May I be able to convey the right message that is pleasing to you Lord. I ask this in Jesus Name. Amen.

I agree that men are a tough nut to crack. We are warriors and we don’t normally speak out what’s in our heart otherwise we may be seen as weak. One effective way that I’ve done in the past is to be with him in his interest/hobbies in life as much as I can and use that as an opportunity to discuss life, in all its seriousness and fun moments. In this way, we are able to build connections.

Hello, Gary.

You're doing the right thing when you call on the Holy Spirit to guide you in what to say when discussing with someone his personal concerns. You didn't mention it, but I'm sure that whenever you immerse yourself in dialogue, you are motivated by love and compassion for the brother.

Of course, we want to listen in order to give advice and counsel. And it requires skill to do that. However, the essential skill that Watchman Nee teaches in this Chapter is how to listen in order that the brother appreciates your genuine concern for what he is going through, and that you have an accurate understanding of exactly what it is that he is going through.

So, first ask the Holy Spirit to give you the ears and the heart to listen to your brother, as well as the skill to draw out from your brother his real and genuine sentiment and feelings at the moment.

The challenge, as you said, is that men are a "hard nut to crack". I think men don't easily open up and expose their feelings of hopelessness, and anything else that might suggest any weakness or failure. And this is the challenge for us who have to counsel them. While bonding with them in some physical activity, as you indicate, is a great way to gain trust and build a relationship. Sometimes, though, the brother's concern cannot wait for a relationship to be built that way. In fact, sometimes, brothers don't directly approach us with a concern, but we need to be sensitive to the signals and the clues coming from whatever small talk we engage in. And that is a skill altogether, namely, how to give open-ended questions (to fish for signs of trouble), then how to read the signals, and how to zero in and crack the nut (so to speak) ... something that Watchman Nee does not emphasize. I shall share some notes to everyone about this as we move this topic forward. God bless us all.

Quote from Gary Cabalde on August 2, 2024, 3:55 pm

I classify my listening skills as "hybrid" as I encounter these 3 habits of listening style from time to time but admittedly, i am more inclined to only listen to what is mentioned to me. It takes so much patience and great love for your brother to always listen to him with you heart and get to the point that you immerse yourself into himself that you fully understand the things he said, refrained from saying and what his spirit is also conveying.

It improves my listening skill every time i put myself in his shoes and look at his concerns from his angle. But sad to say, i am not consistent in applying this kind of habit at all times. What I’ve been doing lately is to also be mindful of the workings of the Holy Spirit while I am ministering to someone, asking the Lord what does He want me to say to this person while looking at the person eye-to-eye so as not to lose him/her; again very inconsistent in this matter

Father, I praise and honor you and I pray that I may do this more through others by listening to them lovingly and hear your people using my heart. May I be able to convey the right message that is pleasing to you Lord. I ask this in Jesus Name. Amen.

I agree that men are a tough nut to crack. We are warriors and we don’t normally speak out what’s in our heart otherwise we may be seen as weak. One effective way that I’ve done in the past is to be with him in his interest/hobbies in life as much as I can and use that as an opportunity to discuss life, in all its seriousness and fun moments. In this way, we are able to build connections.

Hello, Gary.

You're doing the right thing when you call on the Holy Spirit to guide you in what to say when discussing with someone his personal concerns. You didn't mention it, but I'm sure that whenever you immerse yourself in dialogue, you are motivated by love and compassion for the brother.

Of course, we want to listen in order to give advice and counsel. And it requires skill to do that. However, the essential skill that Watchman Nee teaches in this Chapter is how to listen in order that the brother appreciates your genuine concern for what he is going through, and that you have an accurate understanding of exactly what it is that he is going through.

So, first ask the Holy Spirit to give you the ears and the heart to listen to your brother, as well as the skill to draw out from your brother his real and genuine sentiment and feelings at the moment.

The challenge, as you said, is that men are a "hard nut to crack". I think men don't easily open up and expose their feelings of hopelessness, and anything else that might suggest any weakness or failure. And this is the challenge for us who have to counsel them. While bonding with them in some physical activity, as you indicate, is a great way to gain trust and build a relationship. Sometimes, though, the brother's concern cannot wait for a relationship to be built that way. In fact, sometimes, brothers don't directly approach us with a concern, but we need to be sensitive to the signals and the clues coming from whatever small talk we engage in. And that is a skill altogether, namely, how to give open-ended questions (to fish for signs of trouble), then how to read the signals, and how to zero in and crack the nut (so to speak) ... something that Watchman Nee does not emphasize. I shall share some notes to everyone about this as we move this topic forward. God bless us all.

#34 · November 1, 2024, 12:42 am

Quote from Eddie on November 1, 2024, 12:42 am

Quote from Alex Filamor on August 7, 2024, 6:26 pm

I'm the type of listener who tends to focus on the substance of the story or discussion "no beating around the Bush" or no BS story, please. I always take notes to have a reference to return if needed. After the listening part, I pray and clear my mind of any biases so I can discern properly.

I'm the listener who puts myself into his/her situation. Kung baga what if ako ang nasa sitwasyon niya? This listening skill makes me more attentive to see thoroughly the bigger picture of what a person is trying to convey. Being subjective is the thing that makes me often fall into this trap.

Lord, grant me a listening heart and mind always so I can better serve my brothers. Allow me to utter advice and directions based on your wisdom and not rely on my own thoughts.

I agree that men are so tough a nut to crack, maybe because of ego or afraid of correction. Or another thing is that they don't want to show that they are weak. Sometimes a bottle or 2 of beer helps to loosen up a brother to open up. Make 1-1's casual or informal to release tensions.

Hello Alex,

I see myself in you, when you say you don't like to beat around the bush. I don't know about you, but in my case, I am guilty of sometimes demonstrating impatience when someone is not direct and is vague and it's so hard to get to the core of the problem. I hope you're able to overcome this impatience, and actually allow the brother sufficient freedom to disclose the truth at his own comfortable pace. I think that my impatience stems from the fact that I already know what to say and what to recommend, even before he is finished telling his story. You know what I mean? And that's something I myself had to correct; and which Watchman Nee exactly warns about. Let's learn from this, Alex, and make sure that we have the love and charity to allow the person to express himself at his pace, and to push back our urge to draw our conclusion, even though it might seem crystal clear already to us from the first minute of dialogue.

I hope you understand why I single out the issue about dealing with men about their problems. They're (este, we are) a tough nut to crack because men don't even want to show that they have problems, right? I feel based on the answers of the other brothers that this is something we can discuss more amongst each other. Abangan.

Comment ko lang sa beer session ... my own personal philosophy is never to drink when upset or when you have a problem. I reserve alcohol for happy occasions. Let's make sure that we don't encourage the brother to turn to alcohol when he has problems; that's all I'm saying. Ingat tayo, bro.

God bless us all.

Quote from Alex Filamor on August 7, 2024, 6:26 pm

I'm the type of listener who tends to focus on the substance of the story or discussion "no beating around the Bush" or no BS story, please. I always take notes to have a reference to return if needed. After the listening part, I pray and clear my mind of any biases so I can discern properly.

I'm the listener who puts myself into his/her situation. Kung baga what if ako ang nasa sitwasyon niya? This listening skill makes me more attentive to see thoroughly the bigger picture of what a person is trying to convey. Being subjective is the thing that makes me often fall into this trap.

Lord, grant me a listening heart and mind always so I can better serve my brothers. Allow me to utter advice and directions based on your wisdom and not rely on my own thoughts.

I agree that men are so tough a nut to crack, maybe because of ego or afraid of correction. Or another thing is that they don't want to show that they are weak. Sometimes a bottle or 2 of beer helps to loosen up a brother to open up. Make 1-1's casual or informal to release tensions.

Hello Alex,

I see myself in you, when you say you don't like to beat around the bush. I don't know about you, but in my case, I am guilty of sometimes demonstrating impatience when someone is not direct and is vague and it's so hard to get to the core of the problem. I hope you're able to overcome this impatience, and actually allow the brother sufficient freedom to disclose the truth at his own comfortable pace. I think that my impatience stems from the fact that I already know what to say and what to recommend, even before he is finished telling his story. You know what I mean? And that's something I myself had to correct; and which Watchman Nee exactly warns about. Let's learn from this, Alex, and make sure that we have the love and charity to allow the person to express himself at his pace, and to push back our urge to draw our conclusion, even though it might seem crystal clear already to us from the first minute of dialogue.

I hope you understand why I single out the issue about dealing with men about their problems. They're (este, we are) a tough nut to crack because men don't even want to show that they have problems, right? I feel based on the answers of the other brothers that this is something we can discuss more amongst each other. Abangan.

Comment ko lang sa beer session ... my own personal philosophy is never to drink when upset or when you have a problem. I reserve alcohol for happy occasions. Let's make sure that we don't encourage the brother to turn to alcohol when he has problems; that's all I'm saying. Ingat tayo, bro.

God bless us all.

Alex Filamor has reacted to this post.

#35 · November 9, 2024, 11:16 am

Quote from Eddie on November 9, 2024, 11:16 am

Quote from Alan Santos on August 23, 2024, 10:58 am

1, Unfortunately, I have not handled a group for quite some time. But on occasions when brothers come to me with their concerns, I must admit that at times, I do fall into the situation of really not listening and having an opinion immediately, as Watchman Nee says, we must not be subjective. This is the main reason why we all pray before our one-on-one sessions. To ask Him for his guidance and allow the Holy Spirit to make us hear and understand.

2. “Enter into the feelings of others” by doing so, I feel I am able to really understand the concern of the person and what he is going through. I must admit, that there are times when I become subjective and allow this to cloud my understanding.

Holy Spirit, grant me the grace to be compassionate. Help me to listen and understand. Grant me the wisdom to be able to listen to my brethren. Open my heart and mind and allow your Spirit to dwell more in me. Guide me, Lord.

3. I believe that before a brother can open up his real personal concerns, a solid relationship must be established first, a relationship of trust and brotherhood. Once that this has been established, it will be easier for the brother to open up. Like any relationship, one must get close in order for the other to be more open.

Good self-reflections, Alan. Notice the nature of the male psych. We're quick to give solutions (because we like solving problems). But we're slow to admit our own problems (because nga we're supposed to be good problem solvers).

Let's all learn to discipline ourselves, especially when counselling other men nga. Seek first to understand before being understood, is the golden rule of Covey, remember?

Your suggestion about getting a man to open himself up by investing time to build a relationship of trust and brotherhood is great, if you have the luxury of time. But here's another trick that would work, even if your relationship with the other fellow is not so deep: be the first to expose your own weakness and difficulties. This signals to him that you trust him, and more importantly that it's okay to be vulnerable, and that this is safe space. Try mo.

Quote from Alan Santos on August 23, 2024, 10:58 am

1, Unfortunately, I have not handled a group for quite some time. But on occasions when brothers come to me with their concerns, I must admit that at times, I do fall into the situation of really not listening and having an opinion immediately, as Watchman Nee says, we must not be subjective. This is the main reason why we all pray before our one-on-one sessions. To ask Him for his guidance and allow the Holy Spirit to make us hear and understand.

2. “Enter into the feelings of others” by doing so, I feel I am able to really understand the concern of the person and what he is going through. I must admit, that there are times when I become subjective and allow this to cloud my understanding.

Holy Spirit, grant me the grace to be compassionate. Help me to listen and understand. Grant me the wisdom to be able to listen to my brethren. Open my heart and mind and allow your Spirit to dwell more in me. Guide me, Lord.

3. I believe that before a brother can open up his real personal concerns, a solid relationship must be established first, a relationship of trust and brotherhood. Once that this has been established, it will be easier for the brother to open up. Like any relationship, one must get close in order for the other to be more open.

Good self-reflections, Alan. Notice the nature of the male psych. We're quick to give solutions (because we like solving problems). But we're slow to admit our own problems (because nga we're supposed to be good problem solvers).

Let's all learn to discipline ourselves, especially when counselling other men nga. Seek first to understand before being understood, is the golden rule of Covey, remember?

Your suggestion about getting a man to open himself up by investing time to build a relationship of trust and brotherhood is great, if you have the luxury of time. But here's another trick that would work, even if your relationship with the other fellow is not so deep: be the first to expose your own weakness and difficulties. This signals to him that you trust him, and more importantly that it's okay to be vulnerable, and that this is safe space. Try mo.

#36 · November 9, 2024, 5:30 pm

Quote from Eddie on November 9, 2024, 5:30 pm

Quote from Gary Bogarin on August 18, 2024, 7:47 am

1. In the first part, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself?

I would rate myself an 8/10. I always try to explore and understand where the brother is coming from, not taking everything in face value. Sometimes in order to understand fully his situation is to probe and ask more questions thereby 'making him reveal details' that he did not mention initially. It get's a little 'daunting' sometimes when the case is something I have not experienced personally. Prayers and more prayers are a big help for me to be able to empathize during these situations.

2. In the second part, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us
improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals.
Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will
significantly improve your ability to listen well? What mindset must you change, or
what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill?
Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

I can improve more on not being subjective. Sometimes it can't be avoided that I become subjective (at first) and somehow have an initial idea of a certain issue or problem, but when probed further there are times that I see differently and clearly the brother's situation. I also always caution myself that it is not about me but the brother I am talking to. That I need to hear him out even before I speak. Lastly, I like the idea of listening to one's spirit. I need to grow in that area.

Heavenly Father, I humbly seek your grace to allow me to grow in my listening skills. To grow in listening with my heart and eventually listen to someone else's spirit. May I be filled with your Spirit, ready to help and listen to a brother in need always, Amen+

3. I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you
(another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the
biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is not saying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern. Do
you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack? Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

I think by earning someone's trust and confidence. Good thing in community we are already taught that we love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. For the men under my care they know that teachings, corrections and directions are all given out of love for them.

Gary, I believe you've captured the essential lessons in this chapter very well, and that you appreciate the caution about being subjective, and being too ready to give a solution or an analysis before the brother is able to fully disclose everything that's in his mind and heart. Indeed, we must listen with the Spirit, but this is a Spirit of love first of all ... more than a Spirit of wisdom. Sometimes, the "wisdom" part seems to come ahead, and therefore we think we already know the solution, when we still have to listen with love.

As for getting the brother to open up, or to even disclose a concern, or a weakness, or a sin -- yes, indeed, trust that is founded on a good relationship is important. And we need to invest in building that relationship. But sometimes, we don't have the luxury of time. So what should we do (at the early stages), Gary? One tip that I can suggest that will speed up the process of trust-building is to be the first to share your concerns or problems or issues. By being vulnerable like this, you're signalling that you trust him. And you're suggesting that it's okay to be vulnerable, that this is "safe space", and that it will really go a long way if we let our guards down, and if we are completely honest with each other. Does that make sense? I suggest you give that a try, Gary.

And may God hear and answer your prayer. God bless you.

Quote from Gary Bogarin on August 18, 2024, 7:47 am

1. In the first part, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself?

I would rate myself an 8/10. I always try to explore and understand where the brother is coming from, not taking everything in face value. Sometimes in order to understand fully his situation is to probe and ask more questions thereby 'making him reveal details' that he did not mention initially. It get's a little 'daunting' sometimes when the case is something I have not experienced personally. Prayers and more prayers are a big help for me to be able to empathize during these situations.

2. In the second part, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us
improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals.
Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will
significantly improve your ability to listen well? What mindset must you change, or
what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill?
Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

I can improve more on not being subjective. Sometimes it can't be avoided that I become subjective (at first) and somehow have an initial idea of a certain issue or problem, but when probed further there are times that I see differently and clearly the brother's situation. I also always caution myself that it is not about me but the brother I am talking to. That I need to hear him out even before I speak. Lastly, I like the idea of listening to one's spirit. I need to grow in that area.

Heavenly Father, I humbly seek your grace to allow me to grow in my listening skills. To grow in listening with my heart and eventually listen to someone else's spirit. May I be filled with your Spirit, ready to help and listen to a brother in need always, Amen+

3. I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you
(another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the
biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is not saying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern. Do
you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack? Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

I think by earning someone's trust and confidence. Good thing in community we are already taught that we love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. For the men under my care they know that teachings, corrections and directions are all given out of love for them.

Gary, I believe you've captured the essential lessons in this chapter very well, and that you appreciate the caution about being subjective, and being too ready to give a solution or an analysis before the brother is able to fully disclose everything that's in his mind and heart. Indeed, we must listen with the Spirit, but this is a Spirit of love first of all ... more than a Spirit of wisdom. Sometimes, the "wisdom" part seems to come ahead, and therefore we think we already know the solution, when we still have to listen with love.

As for getting the brother to open up, or to even disclose a concern, or a weakness, or a sin -- yes, indeed, trust that is founded on a good relationship is important. And we need to invest in building that relationship. But sometimes, we don't have the luxury of time. So what should we do (at the early stages), Gary? One tip that I can suggest that will speed up the process of trust-building is to be the first to share your concerns or problems or issues. By being vulnerable like this, you're signalling that you trust him. And you're suggesting that it's okay to be vulnerable, that this is "safe space", and that it will really go a long way if we let our guards down, and if we are completely honest with each other. Does that make sense? I suggest you give that a try, Gary.

And may God hear and answer your prayer. God bless you.

#37 · November 9, 2024, 5:46 pm

Quote from Eddie on November 9, 2024, 5:46 pm

Quote from MarYo Galvez on August 25, 2024, 3:52 pm

The three different kinds of messages are very present in my role of serving young men. As they go about finishing their studies and pursuing their professional careers and extending themselves in community through different services, the need for intentional listening needless to say is very important. I have had brothers who are ready sharers of their lives – blessings and concerns at the onset, there are some who I have to gain their trust before they open up about anything. Over the years, I have overcome to urge to speak, to teach, to compare experiences. The time spent for one to one sessions is dedicated to taking notes, probing to understand the situation of the brother better and try to recap what he means and he wants to get out of the conversation. Then I ask permission to impart any reaction, knowledge if he is open to it (they usually are naman). Then plan for what’s next ahead (so it does not remain as a concern) and he wants me to play a part in it (ako din ba may assignment). Just because I have established my own steps for 1 to 1 and how to make it fruitful and life giving, I would give myself a 4 out of 5 rating.

Of the three techniques, “we must not woolgather” is my obvious concern. Having the mental discipline to just focus on finishing one task from another is a major goal for me. In order to gain mental discipline, I protect schedules with the brothers in my men’s group both the group meetings and the ones to ones. And if I gain some sort of free time, I invite brothers who are free to impromptu one to one just to get ahead especially those who have urgent concerns or decisions to make. Personally, I now deliberately sleep early. Cut down screen time. Get enough mind rest.

I have had my share of my brothers who are ok to share and those who will shy away from being too personal in our one to ones. For the brothers, I have had shared a deeper bond of openness and trust to move along their discipleship journey in the Lord, I have subscribe to three ways: 1) Yes, listening siyempre. Sincere type. Kapag formal - taking notes, probing questions, listing action points. Informal lang. Usually over coffee or beer. Free flowing but taking mental notes. ; 2) Sacrifice. Brothers need to know you are invested in them not only in the time to listen but your own practical steps to move them forward or support them in their studies or careers. The easy ones are referrals for internships, job seeking or client prospects. The hard ones are times of need – difficult service, personal accidents, etc which needs the third way.; 3) Spiritual battle. You have to make a brother understand that there are long battles dealing with more difficult concerns. So they have to know that you are in it for the long haul – praying for one another, fasting and regular updating. Listen. Sacrifice. Spiritual battle.

Excellent responses, MarYo. Needless to say, your profession has honed your listening skill. Ikaw dapat mag-turo nitong topic. 🙂 I agree with all your points, and I appreciate your technique.

Isa lang ang madadagdag ko. What do you think about this approach when dealing with men -- who are not comfortable with exposing weakness, vulnerabilities, or even -- and especially -- areas of sin: how about if you were to be the first to disclose your own weakness/vulnerability/mistakes/sin? Will this not signal to your brother that this is "free space", and that you trust them yourself? And that you've given yourself permission to be vulnerable, and implying that "it's ok to be vulnerable ... but honesty is key".

I have done this on occasion, and I believe that it helps a lot. I think about what I see in movies and shows about therapy groups, when new joiners to the group are exposed to an environment where people freely open up and confess their vulnerabilities. Right? I say, give it a shot.

God bless, MarYo!!

Quote from MarYo Galvez on August 25, 2024, 3:52 pm

The three different kinds of messages are very present in my role of serving young men. As they go about finishing their studies and pursuing their professional careers and extending themselves in community through different services, the need for intentional listening needless to say is very important. I have had brothers who are ready sharers of their lives – blessings and concerns at the onset, there are some who I have to gain their trust before they open up about anything. Over the years, I have overcome to urge to speak, to teach, to compare experiences. The time spent for one to one sessions is dedicated to taking notes, probing to understand the situation of the brother better and try to recap what he means and he wants to get out of the conversation. Then I ask permission to impart any reaction, knowledge if he is open to it (they usually are naman). Then plan for what’s next ahead (so it does not remain as a concern) and he wants me to play a part in it (ako din ba may assignment). Just because I have established my own steps for 1 to 1 and how to make it fruitful and life giving, I would give myself a 4 out of 5 rating.

Of the three techniques, “we must not woolgather” is my obvious concern. Having the mental discipline to just focus on finishing one task from another is a major goal for me. In order to gain mental discipline, I protect schedules with the brothers in my men’s group both the group meetings and the ones to ones. And if I gain some sort of free time, I invite brothers who are free to impromptu one to one just to get ahead especially those who have urgent concerns or decisions to make. Personally, I now deliberately sleep early. Cut down screen time. Get enough mind rest.

I have had my share of my brothers who are ok to share and those who will shy away from being too personal in our one to ones. For the brothers, I have had shared a deeper bond of openness and trust to move along their discipleship journey in the Lord, I have subscribe to three ways: 1) Yes, listening siyempre. Sincere type. Kapag formal - taking notes, probing questions, listing action points. Informal lang. Usually over coffee or beer. Free flowing but taking mental notes. ; 2) Sacrifice. Brothers need to know you are invested in them not only in the time to listen but your own practical steps to move them forward or support them in their studies or careers. The easy ones are referrals for internships, job seeking or client prospects. The hard ones are times of need – difficult service, personal accidents, etc which needs the third way.; 3) Spiritual battle. You have to make a brother understand that there are long battles dealing with more difficult concerns. So they have to know that you are in it for the long haul – praying for one another, fasting and regular updating. Listen. Sacrifice. Spiritual battle.

Excellent responses, MarYo. Needless to say, your profession has honed your listening skill. Ikaw dapat mag-turo nitong topic. 🙂 I agree with all your points, and I appreciate your technique.

Isa lang ang madadagdag ko. What do you think about this approach when dealing with men -- who are not comfortable with exposing weakness, vulnerabilities, or even -- and especially -- areas of sin: how about if you were to be the first to disclose your own weakness/vulnerability/mistakes/sin? Will this not signal to your brother that this is "free space", and that you trust them yourself? And that you've given yourself permission to be vulnerable, and implying that "it's ok to be vulnerable ... but honesty is key".

I have done this on occasion, and I believe that it helps a lot. I think about what I see in movies and shows about therapy groups, when new joiners to the group are exposed to an environment where people freely open up and confess their vulnerabilities. Right? I say, give it a shot.

God bless, MarYo!!

#38 · November 9, 2024, 6:09 pm

Quote from Eddie on November 9, 2024, 6:09 pm

Quote from James Labayo on August 30, 2024, 1:16 am

I always see myself as a man of patience. I use patience whenever I talk and listen to someone. In serving community especially during Discussion Groups, Men’s Groups and One-to-Ones, I normally pray during the conversation. Half of me is listening to the person while the other half is praying/sensing/listening to the Lord. Simple prayer helps like asking the Lord: (1) what do you want me to say to this person; (2) use me at this moment; or (3) bless the intentions of this person. This is also very applicable to my children, as well, whenever we have discussions in both spiritual and practical areas of growth. One must also thank and acknowledge the Lord after the conversation for He guided our thoughts and words. I rate myself 7.5/10 since I have been doing this for more than 30 years and counting.

The spirit of the three techniques, I think, lies in a man’s heart to serve others. You will find yourself merciful, humble and compassionate when you put the other person first.

O Holy Spirit of God, align me to the Father and Son at all times. I pray that I may always die to myself and forego my self-interest to be able to do His will for me and serve His people.

I agree that real men are tough nuts to crack. I believe that manly relationships are not only found but are built over time. Men usually open up when they are with men they grow up with, men they look up to or men of the same interest. Before going into the real personal concerns, I choose to build on the relationship, spend time, initiate personal conversations and be dependable/available.

Finally, I love the last part of this chapter particularly the misconception that the primary essential of Christians is to be able to speak. Instead, we all need to abide in God to have spiritual clarity; we need discernment concerning the condition of all who seek us out; we need quietness of mind to hear them state their case; and we need quietness of spirit so that we can sense their true condition beyond their own definitions of it. These statements give me the confidence to serve the Lord more as a servant leader.

James, I think you have an excellent understanding of this topic; and I like it that you appreciate how important listening is in order to build relations, and to be able to be of help to the other.

Just two comments that I hope will further improve your listening skill. First of all, I like that you're in a prayerful disposition whenever you're having an important conversation, asking for the Lord's guidance on what to say.

How about if you change your prayer a little bit? Instead of focusing on how you will respond and what to say (sabi nga ni Watchman, focus on "listening" and not on thinking of what you should say, right?) How about if you pray and ask the Lord to open your heart and your ears so that you can clearly understand what the brother is going through. Ask the Lord to quiet your mind so that you don't race ahead of what the brother is saying. Ask the Lord for the Spirit of love so that you can empathize and respond with courage and compassion. Ask the Lord to show you what is in the heart of the brother, knowing that God knows it Himself. What do you think? Will this improve your ability to listen even better?

The second tip I have, has to do with the challenge in getting brothers to admit that they have problems. How about if you go first, and that you be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even? Don't you think that by doing that you're signaling to him that (a) you trust him; (b) you consider this to be "safe space"; and (c) it's ok to have problems; and (d) you appreciate his advice as well. I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do. In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions? What do you think? Want to give this a shot?

God bless you, James.

Quote from James Labayo on August 30, 2024, 1:16 am

I always see myself as a man of patience. I use patience whenever I talk and listen to someone. In serving community especially during Discussion Groups, Men’s Groups and One-to-Ones, I normally pray during the conversation. Half of me is listening to the person while the other half is praying/sensing/listening to the Lord. Simple prayer helps like asking the Lord: (1) what do you want me to say to this person; (2) use me at this moment; or (3) bless the intentions of this person. This is also very applicable to my children, as well, whenever we have discussions in both spiritual and practical areas of growth. One must also thank and acknowledge the Lord after the conversation for He guided our thoughts and words. I rate myself 7.5/10 since I have been doing this for more than 30 years and counting.

The spirit of the three techniques, I think, lies in a man’s heart to serve others. You will find yourself merciful, humble and compassionate when you put the other person first.

O Holy Spirit of God, align me to the Father and Son at all times. I pray that I may always die to myself and forego my self-interest to be able to do His will for me and serve His people.

I agree that real men are tough nuts to crack. I believe that manly relationships are not only found but are built over time. Men usually open up when they are with men they grow up with, men they look up to or men of the same interest. Before going into the real personal concerns, I choose to build on the relationship, spend time, initiate personal conversations and be dependable/available.

Finally, I love the last part of this chapter particularly the misconception that the primary essential of Christians is to be able to speak. Instead, we all need to abide in God to have spiritual clarity; we need discernment concerning the condition of all who seek us out; we need quietness of mind to hear them state their case; and we need quietness of spirit so that we can sense their true condition beyond their own definitions of it. These statements give me the confidence to serve the Lord more as a servant leader.

James, I think you have an excellent understanding of this topic; and I like it that you appreciate how important listening is in order to build relations, and to be able to be of help to the other.

Just two comments that I hope will further improve your listening skill. First of all, I like that you're in a prayerful disposition whenever you're having an important conversation, asking for the Lord's guidance on what to say.

How about if you change your prayer a little bit? Instead of focusing on how you will respond and what to say (sabi nga ni Watchman, focus on "listening" and not on thinking of what you should say, right?) How about if you pray and ask the Lord to open your heart and your ears so that you can clearly understand what the brother is going through. Ask the Lord to quiet your mind so that you don't race ahead of what the brother is saying. Ask the Lord for the Spirit of love so that you can empathize and respond with courage and compassion. Ask the Lord to show you what is in the heart of the brother, knowing that God knows it Himself. What do you think? Will this improve your ability to listen even better?

The second tip I have, has to do with the challenge in getting brothers to admit that they have problems. How about if you go first, and that you be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even? Don't you think that by doing that you're signaling to him that (a) you trust him; (b) you consider this to be "safe space"; and (c) it's ok to have problems; and (d) you appreciate his advice as well. I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do. In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions? What do you think? Want to give this a shot?

God bless you, James.

#39 · November 9, 2024, 6:47 pm

Quote from Eddie on November 9, 2024, 6:47 pm

Quote from Erick Flores on August 30, 2024, 8:42 am

1.
Having done many one to one sessions with brothers, I feel that there are times I am able to listen and discern well on what the brother is saying, holding back and what is kept silent in the depth of his spirit. And I can only know it by the fruit of those sessions. Sometimes immediate and sometimes it takes time.

There are other times I don’t achieve those goals because I am filled with myself instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me as I listen to another brother.

Rating myself as a good listener, I can say struggling 6/10 in terms of skills and ability. When I allow the Lord to use me, it can be 10/10. And when I hinder the Lord to work through me, it can be 0/10.

2.
Subjectivity.

Recently, I have learned as I responded to a brother and his loved ones in need from a calamity situation how subjectivity can endanger lives and health of a family. We were discussing plans and solutions to the brother’s family condition as the situation in their house worsen.

I thought I have listened well to his concern and we agreed to all the answers to their needs. This later on made me realize that I was responding with solutions that are convenient for me and subject to what I can offer.

Gladly, another brother was moved by the Lord to convince him to consider what the community can offer to ensure their safety and well being. And loving response from brothers and sisters outpoured. Receiving messages from the brother after that, I can hear peace from within his heart.

For the Lord’s thoughts are beyond my thoughts and His ways far better than my ways.

Prayer:
Come, Holy Spirit. Grant me the grace to be humble and empty my heart from my own self. Free me from any acts, thoughts and decisions that seeks pride and convenience. Especially, for the people You placed under my care.

Come, Holy Spirit, fill my heart. Everytime as I pray, listen to others, respond to their needs and do Your work each day.

Come, Holy Spirit. Grant my heart joy and peace. Knowing that at the end of the day I have followed Your will.

3.
Why do you think men are a tough nut to crack?

Yes, I agree. Our nature as protector can make us very cautious from revealing our self information, our weaknesses and our emotions. This can result to not being able to easily trust others.

Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

In the context of our community, pastoral care. Even when I fail to listen well towards the concern of a brother or if I am not sure of the best response to a brothers need, I am confident that someone wiser is there to listen, advice, pray with me and even seek better counsel from other brothers to ensure that we have delivered the Lord’s care for the person in need.

Hello, Erick. I like your honesty in admitting that you have much to improve on in the area of listening. Despite the years we've been on both ends of the sharing of concerns, and of listening to other people's concerns, there is still room for improvement. And hopefully, this chapter of Watchman Nee will bring your self-score up one or two notches more.

I think the essential element of listening that we all need to have is the element of love. I don't mean to judge you and say you lack love, but when you yourself confess and pray that you want the Lord to teach you to be humble, not to seek your own convenience, and to empty your heart from your own self ... aren't you asking for the Lord to teach you to love as He would love? I don't have to go deeper into this, because I am certain you know what I mean, and that you know what a difference that makes, right, Erick?

The problem with subjectivity is that we try to put ourselves into the situation, and think what we would do if we were in the person's place. But as the lesson demonstrates, that problem-solving mindset is what gets us into trouble ... because our tendency to immediately get rid of problems (which is a think what makes a man a man) ... does not have the patience to probe deeper into the situation; it does not give us the patience to listen with compassion, so that the person we're talking feels that he is fully understood.

Some of the brothers in this chat group nga have a prayer that goes "Lord, teach me what to say." While this is good, and important, this is going ahead of the more important prayer, which is: "Give me a heart of love, so I can see what You see, and so that I can feel what this brother is feeling, and so that can respond with love the way You would." That's the lesson that Watchman Nee wants us to draw from the chapter, Erick.

And while we feel that we are doing a good job of listening, based on, what you say is the fruit, I want to warn that -- again -- our biases about what the solution is will look for fruit that conforms with the effect of our solution; but unless we are certain that we know the entire situation and the entire problem, we may have just skimmed the surface and thus feel good that our advice "worked". Maybe for the superficial problem, yes; but for the deeper undisclosed problem ... maybe not. Right?

As for getting men -- who by nature are protectors -- to admit some vulnerability, some weakness, or some sin (even) ... I find that one effective way is for us to take the lead in exposing our own vulnerabilities. I think that this will work better and faster than sharing a couple of bottles of beer, or sweating it out in a basketball court. This is the technique used in group therapy sessions, isn't it? I think by doing this, by us (pastoral leaders) being the first to expose our vulnerabilities, we're signaling to our brother(s) that (a) we are not perfect and we also need help; (b) you trust them with your "secrets"; (c) it's okay to be vulnerable; (d) this is safe space. What do you think, Erick?

And yes, thank God for community, that we are not the only one who can reach out to the brother, and that indeed God will minister to that brother for sure, whether through you or through someone else. But our mindset should be that we must be ready, and be prepared always "for such a time as this" all the time, as we walk along the path of the Good Samaritan.

God bless you, Erick.

Quote from Erick Flores on August 30, 2024, 8:42 am

1.
Having done many one to one sessions with brothers, I feel that there are times I am able to listen and discern well on what the brother is saying, holding back and what is kept silent in the depth of his spirit. And I can only know it by the fruit of those sessions. Sometimes immediate and sometimes it takes time.

There are other times I don’t achieve those goals because I am filled with myself instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me as I listen to another brother.

Rating myself as a good listener, I can say struggling 6/10 in terms of skills and ability. When I allow the Lord to use me, it can be 10/10. And when I hinder the Lord to work through me, it can be 0/10.

2.
Subjectivity.

Recently, I have learned as I responded to a brother and his loved ones in need from a calamity situation how subjectivity can endanger lives and health of a family. We were discussing plans and solutions to the brother’s family condition as the situation in their house worsen.

I thought I have listened well to his concern and we agreed to all the answers to their needs. This later on made me realize that I was responding with solutions that are convenient for me and subject to what I can offer.

Gladly, another brother was moved by the Lord to convince him to consider what the community can offer to ensure their safety and well being. And loving response from brothers and sisters outpoured. Receiving messages from the brother after that, I can hear peace from within his heart.

For the Lord’s thoughts are beyond my thoughts and His ways far better than my ways.

Prayer:
Come, Holy Spirit. Grant me the grace to be humble and empty my heart from my own self. Free me from any acts, thoughts and decisions that seeks pride and convenience. Especially, for the people You placed under my care.

Come, Holy Spirit, fill my heart. Everytime as I pray, listen to others, respond to their needs and do Your work each day.

Come, Holy Spirit. Grant my heart joy and peace. Knowing that at the end of the day I have followed Your will.

3.
Why do you think men are a tough nut to crack?

Yes, I agree. Our nature as protector can make us very cautious from revealing our self information, our weaknesses and our emotions. This can result to not being able to easily trust others.

Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

In the context of our community, pastoral care. Even when I fail to listen well towards the concern of a brother or if I am not sure of the best response to a brothers need, I am confident that someone wiser is there to listen, advice, pray with me and even seek better counsel from other brothers to ensure that we have delivered the Lord’s care for the person in need.

Hello, Erick. I like your honesty in admitting that you have much to improve on in the area of listening. Despite the years we've been on both ends of the sharing of concerns, and of listening to other people's concerns, there is still room for improvement. And hopefully, this chapter of Watchman Nee will bring your self-score up one or two notches more.

I think the essential element of listening that we all need to have is the element of love. I don't mean to judge you and say you lack love, but when you yourself confess and pray that you want the Lord to teach you to be humble, not to seek your own convenience, and to empty your heart from your own self ... aren't you asking for the Lord to teach you to love as He would love? I don't have to go deeper into this, because I am certain you know what I mean, and that you know what a difference that makes, right, Erick?

The problem with subjectivity is that we try to put ourselves into the situation, and think what we would do if we were in the person's place. But as the lesson demonstrates, that problem-solving mindset is what gets us into trouble ... because our tendency to immediately get rid of problems (which is a think what makes a man a man) ... does not have the patience to probe deeper into the situation; it does not give us the patience to listen with compassion, so that the person we're talking feels that he is fully understood.

Some of the brothers in this chat group nga have a prayer that goes "Lord, teach me what to say." While this is good, and important, this is going ahead of the more important prayer, which is: "Give me a heart of love, so I can see what You see, and so that I can feel what this brother is feeling, and so that can respond with love the way You would." That's the lesson that Watchman Nee wants us to draw from the chapter, Erick.

And while we feel that we are doing a good job of listening, based on, what you say is the fruit, I want to warn that -- again -- our biases about what the solution is will look for fruit that conforms with the effect of our solution; but unless we are certain that we know the entire situation and the entire problem, we may have just skimmed the surface and thus feel good that our advice "worked". Maybe for the superficial problem, yes; but for the deeper undisclosed problem ... maybe not. Right?

As for getting men -- who by nature are protectors -- to admit some vulnerability, some weakness, or some sin (even) ... I find that one effective way is for us to take the lead in exposing our own vulnerabilities. I think that this will work better and faster than sharing a couple of bottles of beer, or sweating it out in a basketball court. This is the technique used in group therapy sessions, isn't it? I think by doing this, by us (pastoral leaders) being the first to expose our vulnerabilities, we're signaling to our brother(s) that (a) we are not perfect and we also need help; (b) you trust them with your "secrets"; (c) it's okay to be vulnerable; (d) this is safe space. What do you think, Erick?

And yes, thank God for community, that we are not the only one who can reach out to the brother, and that indeed God will minister to that brother for sure, whether through you or through someone else. But our mindset should be that we must be ready, and be prepared always "for such a time as this" all the time, as we walk along the path of the Good Samaritan.

God bless you, Erick.

#40 · November 9, 2024, 7:18 pm

Quote from Eddie on November 9, 2024, 7:18 pm

Quote from Jordan Echague on September 3, 2024, 11:15 am

Quote from Eddie on July 29, 2024, 10:41 am

Brothers,

This chapter is quite instructional and relatively straightforward compared to the first three chapters we’ve read so far in this series. Please share your thoughts and assessments on the following:

In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself?

In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well? What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill? Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is not saying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern. Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack? Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

- GOD BLESS US ALL -

1. The 3 messages we need to be aware of:

"he should be able to discern three different kinds of speech – the words he is uttering; the words he is holding back; the words he cannot utter that lie in the depths of his spirit."

Chapter 4 of "The Normal Christian Worker" was able to shed light on areas I need to improve on as a listener and as a pastoral worker.

For one, I've always believed that listening to those under my pastoral care only involved the messages and words told to me. I would listen intently to these concerns and instead of finding solutions, my advice is always to seek the Lord in the decisions he must make. I would offer instances in my life where I encountered similar circumstances as my form of advice as to not meddle or interfere with their decision-making. I totally leave it up to them but am with them each step that they take.

In this chapter, Watchman Nee tells me to look beyond the "declared" messages and seek to spirit in listening to the words which were unsaid and the issues that were undeclared. These points slightly align to my way of listening as it can widen my pastoral mind in delving with the concern.

That leads me to a new approach whenever I listen to people seeking my advice. My heart needs to be more sensitive to the leadings of the Holy Spirit. And I must learn to listen with a different mindset. That I be used by God to give a perspective in-line with His plans for the concerned brother. And for me to do that, I need to shift gears in the way that I listen.

I grade myself a respectable B- for my efforts in listening. But I have a long way to go before I get that A.

2. The 3 Do's and Don'ts are: to not be subjective, to not woolgather, and to learn to enter into the feelings of others.

Among the 3, "Learning to enter the feelings of others" would be the one that I need to improve on the most and will definitely help me as a listener.

This involves being extremely sensitive to the Holy Spirit to allow me to put myself in the shoes of the person I'm listening to. Sensing the different aspects of his concern outside of what he is saying would need a certain type of patience that I dont think I have yet. It also means that I have to discern and "diagnose" properly his concern. As someone who does not find it comfortable in meddling or coming in between situations that dont involve me, I believe that I need a lot of God's grace to be able to lose myself and be in the person's shoes.

Lord, I ask for the grace to humbly listen to others and to allow Your Spirit to work in me. I pray for Your guidance in being your instrument of love to all those who seek your Will. And may I work to do your work always.

3. Naturally, I believe that men are less open to share their concerns than women. And in my case, it's difficult for me to even admit mistakes, wrongdoing, or weaknesses. As natural providers for the family, and natural leaders, showing weakness is not easy. Therefore, processing these concerns makes things more difficult for men in general, based on my experiences.

The best way for me to get a brother to open up is to establish a good relationship/friendship first. It's more comfortable to open up to someone familiar. And then I do my best to not show my reactions or my initial impressions. This is where this chapter comes in. Reserving judgment or biases is good when listening because a discussion or conversation begins instead of the other brother trying to defend his decision making.

Finally, I feel that it is easier for a brother to share his concerns and to seek counsel from you if you have earned his respect. If you've established that you make good choices in life and that you have a sincere heart in listening, I believe that men come for advice seeking a similar trend.

Thank you for your honesty and your wisdom, Jordan. I believe that you have correctly gotten to the core of what Watchman Nee wants to teach all of us, and I'm happy to hear that you're ready and willing to grow in competence here.

Just a couple of points that I wish to add, Jordan:

Firstly, may the Lord answer your prayer. And in so doing, I simply want to remind you -- as I actually did for several of your brothers in this study group -- that the mindset that we all have to put on is the mindset of selfless love for those God sends our way. To listen according to the technique suggested by Watchman Nee is really to listen with love, with the aim of compassion. Sure, we want to help, and that's being loving. But to be able to listen first and completely withholding all sorts of biases, all sorts of quick solutions, and all sorts of processing in our mind about what we can do, what we should do, what we should say ... this involves just literally emptying ourselves of ourself ... and putting the interest of that person way above our own interests and biases. Just to be able to feel what he feels genuinely, and to be able to let him know that sincerely, requires that we pray that we are filled with the love that Jesus has for that person. Does that make sense, Jordan?

As for the last point in getting men to open up, I like your approach. Very mature, and very wise. But how about if you try something a bit different.

How about if you go first, and that you be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even? Don't you think that by doing that you're signaling to him that (a) you trust him; (b) you consider this to be "safe space"; and (c) it's ok to have problems; and (d) you appreciate his advice as well. I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do. In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions? What do you think? Want to give this a shot?

So there, Jordan. Hope this helps. God bless you!!!

Quote from Jordan Echague on September 3, 2024, 11:15 am

Quote from Eddie on July 29, 2024, 10:41 am

Brothers,

This chapter is quite instructional and relatively straightforward compared to the first three chapters we’ve read so far in this series. Please share your thoughts and assessments on the following:

In the first part of the article, Watchman Nee points out 3 different kinds of messages that we need to be able to discern whenever we are discussing a difficult personal concern during a one-on-one session with someone under our care. What has been your experience so far in achieving these goals, and how would you rate yourself?

In the second part of the article, Watchman Nee gives three do’s and don’ts that will help us improve our listening skill and in achieving the earlier-stated set of listening goals. Which of these three techniques -- if you could apply well -- do you think will significantly improve your ability to listen well? What mindset must you change, or what actions must you take in order to grow in that important listening skill? Compose a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to let you grow in this skill.

I think that, in general, getting a man to discuss his personal problems with you (another man) is a special challenge, regardless of your listening skills. It’s like the biggest challenge in discussing personal concerns with a man is discerning what he is not saying, or getting him to open up and honestly admit his problem/concern. Do you agree, and if so, why do you think men are a tough nut to crack? Other than what Watchman Nee points out here, what do you think are other effective ways by which you can get a man to open up his real personal concerns with you?

- GOD BLESS US ALL -

1. The 3 messages we need to be aware of:

"he should be able to discern three different kinds of speech – the words he is uttering; the words he is holding back; the words he cannot utter that lie in the depths of his spirit."

Chapter 4 of "The Normal Christian Worker" was able to shed light on areas I need to improve on as a listener and as a pastoral worker.

For one, I've always believed that listening to those under my pastoral care only involved the messages and words told to me. I would listen intently to these concerns and instead of finding solutions, my advice is always to seek the Lord in the decisions he must make. I would offer instances in my life where I encountered similar circumstances as my form of advice as to not meddle or interfere with their decision-making. I totally leave it up to them but am with them each step that they take.

In this chapter, Watchman Nee tells me to look beyond the "declared" messages and seek to spirit in listening to the words which were unsaid and the issues that were undeclared. These points slightly align to my way of listening as it can widen my pastoral mind in delving with the concern.

That leads me to a new approach whenever I listen to people seeking my advice. My heart needs to be more sensitive to the leadings of the Holy Spirit. And I must learn to listen with a different mindset. That I be used by God to give a perspective in-line with His plans for the concerned brother. And for me to do that, I need to shift gears in the way that I listen.

I grade myself a respectable B- for my efforts in listening. But I have a long way to go before I get that A.

2. The 3 Do's and Don'ts are: to not be subjective, to not woolgather, and to learn to enter into the feelings of others.

Among the 3, "Learning to enter the feelings of others" would be the one that I need to improve on the most and will definitely help me as a listener.

This involves being extremely sensitive to the Holy Spirit to allow me to put myself in the shoes of the person I'm listening to. Sensing the different aspects of his concern outside of what he is saying would need a certain type of patience that I dont think I have yet. It also means that I have to discern and "diagnose" properly his concern. As someone who does not find it comfortable in meddling or coming in between situations that dont involve me, I believe that I need a lot of God's grace to be able to lose myself and be in the person's shoes.

Lord, I ask for the grace to humbly listen to others and to allow Your Spirit to work in me. I pray for Your guidance in being your instrument of love to all those who seek your Will. And may I work to do your work always.

3. Naturally, I believe that men are less open to share their concerns than women. And in my case, it's difficult for me to even admit mistakes, wrongdoing, or weaknesses. As natural providers for the family, and natural leaders, showing weakness is not easy. Therefore, processing these concerns makes things more difficult for men in general, based on my experiences.

The best way for me to get a brother to open up is to establish a good relationship/friendship first. It's more comfortable to open up to someone familiar. And then I do my best to not show my reactions or my initial impressions. This is where this chapter comes in. Reserving judgment or biases is good when listening because a discussion or conversation begins instead of the other brother trying to defend his decision making.

Finally, I feel that it is easier for a brother to share his concerns and to seek counsel from you if you have earned his respect. If you've established that you make good choices in life and that you have a sincere heart in listening, I believe that men come for advice seeking a similar trend.

Thank you for your honesty and your wisdom, Jordan. I believe that you have correctly gotten to the core of what Watchman Nee wants to teach all of us, and I'm happy to hear that you're ready and willing to grow in competence here.

Just a couple of points that I wish to add, Jordan:

Firstly, may the Lord answer your prayer. And in so doing, I simply want to remind you -- as I actually did for several of your brothers in this study group -- that the mindset that we all have to put on is the mindset of selfless love for those God sends our way. To listen according to the technique suggested by Watchman Nee is really to listen with love, with the aim of compassion. Sure, we want to help, and that's being loving. But to be able to listen first and completely withholding all sorts of biases, all sorts of quick solutions, and all sorts of processing in our mind about what we can do, what we should do, what we should say ... this involves just literally emptying ourselves of ourself ... and putting the interest of that person way above our own interests and biases. Just to be able to feel what he feels genuinely, and to be able to let him know that sincerely, requires that we pray that we are filled with the love that Jesus has for that person. Does that make sense, Jordan?

As for the last point in getting men to open up, I like your approach. Very mature, and very wise. But how about if you try something a bit different.

How about if you go first, and that you be the first one to be vulnerable, to be honest with your own problems and challenges and weaknesses and sin, even? Don't you think that by doing that you're signaling to him that (a) you trust him; (b) you consider this to be "safe space"; and (c) it's ok to have problems; and (d) you appreciate his advice as well. I've actually done this, and I find that it really helps build trust more quickly than a couple of beers or some basketball game would do. In fact, isn't this the same technique they use in group therapy sessions? What do you think? Want to give this a shot?

So there, Jordan. Hope this helps. God bless you!!!

Reflection Guide for CHAPTER 4

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